Second hand car engine failure after 3 months

[Linkex]

Purchased a Rover 75 on the 23/09/2013

Wednesday night the wife was driving the car when the engine died in a cloud of smoke. Short version, garage have stripped it and informed us that there is a hole in the piston. Cheapest option is replacing the engine for which they are quoting £2300 (Roughly what we paid for the car)

So the question is, do I have any recourse from the dealer here, or do I have to eat this? Would appreciate if this could be kept to the facts - I appreciate that a lot of people would be 'down to the dealer with a baseball bat' or whatever, but I won't be, so I need to know what their specific obligations are/are not, in this situation.

 

[Housey]

If you want facts, I will give you facts.

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/676408/oft1241.pdf

 

[Linkex]

Thanks Housey. Looking at that, it raises what may well be a stupid question - would the issue be considered present at time of purchase? I'm assuming that the hole didn't suddenly appear, but would have been developing from before we bought the car? I don't really have enough mechanical knowledge on this?

tl;dr - would the dealer be able to get out of this by saying "There wasn't a hole in the piston when we sold it to you"?

 

[Haggisman]

TL;DR version of the above.

Generally if the car is under 6 months old, it is up to the dealer to prove that the fault was not present at the time of purchase. Unless they can do this, they have to either repair, replace, or refund you for the car.

It's unlikely they will pay the value of the car to repair it, so they'll either replace (but you're allowed to insist on similar model/spec/age/mileage/condition, so again unlikely unless you're happy to take a different car).

Chances are you'll get a refund, although I believe they are allowed to make some reductions based on the time you've had it.

Edit:

tl;dr - would the dealer be able to get out of this by saying "There wasn't a hole in the piston when we sold it to you"?

Your response to that would be "prove it". And if they decide to be **** about it, you could expand that response to "prove it in court"

 

[Housey]

The obvious question is have you spoken to the dealer about their view? My advice is give them the opportunity to respond and approach it calmly and objectively. See how they react first before you get too stressed, they may surprise you with their service.

 

[Linkex]

Ok, seems fairly clear cut. Last question - do I simply phone the dealer and discuss it, or do I need to do anything else before/after?

What I mean is, is there anything I can do or not do at this stage which would potentially hurt me if this did end up in court?

edit: Housey - answering questions before I ask them is simply showing off

 

[Housey]

Just deal in facts and only say what you need to say, don't over elaborate or try to self diagnose on the fly or apportion blame at this point.

Can I check, you say the garage has established the cost of repair, I assume this is the garage from where you purchased the car?

 

[Rybo89]

Ring them, explain. See what they say.

If they refuse, do the above. Let them know that you know that you have rights. They either deal with it there and then or can deal with it in court.

 

[Linkex]

Can I check, you say the garage has established the cost of repair, I assume this is the garage from where you purchased the car?

No, its an independent the RAC guy recommended to my wife (I wasn't there when the car died). The dealer itself appears to be a dealer only - there was no obvious signs of a workshop on site (Small, out in the sticks type dealer)

 

[Housey]

No, its an independent the RAC guy recommended to my wife (I wasn't there when the car died). The dealer itself appears to be a dealer only - there was no obvious signs of a workshop on site (Small, out in the sticks type dealer)

They need to be given time to diagnose the problem I feel then, not weeks, but certainly 5 days. They may just take your report on face value, they may want 'their man' to have a look at the car, so I would provide them with both options. Any garage will have its own mechanic of choice.

A problem like this is not something that just happens without a legacy issue or something broken/worn within an inch of its life somewhere else. The cost of repair is about the cost of the car so I would seek a refund for the car if it were me. If they get difficult which sadly I suspect they will you need to be clear in each and every correspondence you make and follow the guidelines I have provided to you which are clear in where obligations sit.

 

[Matt82]

Has anyone here actually got experience of taking this route with second hand car dealers?

 

[Housey]

Has anyone here actually got experience of taking this route with second hand car dealers?

Yup.

 

[div0]

Has anyone here actually got experience of taking this route with second hand car dealers?

Yes, if it is going to cost them a lot of money, then even the biggest dealers will try to deny knowledge of the law. Or maybe they are just ignorant of it.

Firstly I'll say that Housey and Haggisman have already provided some very good information. And I would recommend that the OP follows their advice first, before getting to caught up in going down the 'legal' route.


Assuming situation like the OP (ie fault in first 6 months, when bought from a dealer).

In my experience they may well attempt to 'prove' that they did not know of a fault when they sold you the car. They may well provide documents to show that the car was put through a variety of tests and that no fault was found. They may even state that these tests are all done as part of what ever regulations they are required to follow.

All of this is (mostly) irrelevant. They need to be able to prove that the fault didn't exist (at time of sale) - not that they didn't know about the fault.

To the best of my knowledge, in a circumstance such as the OP, the fault is still deemed to have been present (at time of sale), even if symptoms only show in the weeks/months after driving the car, unless the garage can prove otherwise.

Basically they may attempt to 'prove' their case - but you need to make sure that they are providing relevant proof (something that is usually very hard to do). And not just providing proof that they had carried out all of the relevant pre-sale checks - as this is not the same thing.

 

[Rybo89]

Has anyone here actually got experience of taking this route with second hand car dealers?

We know everything, we was told by guys off the internet

 

[Janesy B]

To be fair it's quite easy for them to prove the piston didn't have a hole in it when the car was sold.

 

[Linkex]

Called the dealer, got a machine, waiting for a call back.

Janesy B - How? A piston doesn't suddenly develop a hole, so its either been close to failure from before I bought the car, or something else has failed, again due to an existing fault. Surely an engine can't go from perfectly working to utterly shagged from wear and tear in just 3 months?

 

[div0]

To be fair it's quite easy for them to prove the piston didn't have a hole in it when the car was sold.

It's not quite that simple. Shamelessly stolen from Housey's link.

Essentially, the SoGA states that the vehicles you sell must be of satisfactory quality, fit for their purpose and fit their description and that you must have the right to sell the vehicle. If not, you – as the seller – are legally obliged to sort out the problem.

You are liable for faults with the vehicle that were present at the time you sold it (where they mean the vehicle was not of satisfactory quality), even though they may only become apparent later on – so called ‘latent’ or ‘inherent’ faults. In some instances the specific fault complained about may not have been present at the time of purchase but the inherent cause of the problem could have rendered the vehicle unsatisfactory at the time of sale

The consumer must be able to use the vehicle for the purposes that you would normally expect from a vehicle. This means not only driving the vehicle from one place to another but doing so with the appropriate degree of comfort, ease of handling and reliability that a reasonable person would expect from that vehicle. If a vehicle keeps breaking down then it is not fit for purpose.

The hole (and subsequent obvious symptoms) may only have developed after use. But the implied underlying fault will be deemed to have already existed, unless the garage can prove otherwise. The vehicle was not sold as 'fit for purpose' if it has developed a hole in the piston, in this sort of time-frame.

 

[Janesy B]

Called the dealer, got a machine, waiting for a call back.

Janesy B - How? A piston doesn't suddenly develop a hole, so its either been close to failure from before I bought the car, or something else has failed, again due to an existing fault. Surely an engine can't go from perfectly working to utterly shagged from wear and tear in just 3 months?

No of course, I was being slightly facetious. Depends what they find when the engine is torn down, whether it's down to a manufacturing defect with the piston or another issue.

 

[Haggisman]

Has anyone here actually got experience of taking this route with second hand car dealers?

Yes, with my most recent car purchase just over a month ago in fact.

Mazda 6, noticed it had an engine rattle at low RPM when warmed up.

Dealer was fully cooperative throughout.

It turned out to be a cheap & simple fix (aux belt pulley), but he said they would have refunded if it was something major - e.g. engine rebuild.

There are some decent dealers out there, so as already suggested, speak to them normally and see what they say, don't go all legal on them straight off the bat, because that will immediately put them on the defensive. If they start to be difficult/evasive about it, then you can start quoting SOGA etc.

 

[Linkex]

Thanks for the advice. Just to clarify, I wasn't looking to go in all guns blazing, I would much rather deal with this amicably. However, I want to go in armed with the right knowledge in case they want to put up a fight.