Poll: Should Gary McKinnon be extradited to the US for hacking?

[stockhausen]

How come Dirtydog, RDM & Moley have managed to turn this into a debate on paedophilia?

Is there something here about which we should know?

 

[steve-h]

Isn't the meaning someone who finds children sexually attractive? Aren't 16 year old's still classed as children?

It's probably a little more complex than that.

 

[chriscpritchard]

It's not limited to prepubescent children though - post-pubescent adults can be classed as victims of paedophilia too.

the WHO say:

sexual preference for children, boys or girls or both, usually of prepubertal or early pubertal age

http://apps.who.int/classifications/apps/icd/icd10online/index.htm?gf60.htm+F654

 

[Moley]

the WHO say:
http://apps.who.int/classifications/apps/icd/icd10online/index.htm?gf60.htm+F654

Sorry I mistyped my original post - should have read post-pubescent adolsecents.

 

[RDM]

I highly, highly doubt that to be honest.

Why not? There is certainly enough evidence to extradite even under the old system (where prima facie evidence was required) and as less is required now other than general anti-american sentiment I can't see why it wouldn't happen in reverse.

How come Dirtydog, RDM & Moley have managed to turn this into a debate on paedophilia?

It isn't that hard to work out how the discussion turned that way, the discussion turned to jurisdiction, dd brought up an issue with regards to prosecuting outside the jurisdiction.

Is there something here about which we should know?

And what exactly do you mean by that statement?

 

[meghatronic]

Why not? There is certainly enough evidence to extradite even under the old system (where prima facie evidence was required) and as less is required now other than general anti-american sentiment I can't see why it wouldn't happen in reverse.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/henryporter/2009/nov/27/extradition-gary-mckinnon

 

[RDM]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/henryporter/2009/nov/27/extradition-gary-mckinnon

Even wading through the usual anti american fluff in the guardian from that very article:

pointed out that probable cause must be demonstrated by a British application to extradite,

As Gary has admited to actually doing the hacking there is your probable cause.

 

[Tute]

I wouldn't have a problem with the evil mastermind and international terrorist Gary McKinnon being tried in a court in a relatively civilised country like the UK.

Define "relatively civilised" - i'm thinking the words you're looking for are "soft" and "touch".

However in the good old Christian Fundamentalist USofA where one Government official said that he "would like to see him 'fry'" and others have suggested that he was a terrorist who carried out the "biggest ever military computer hack", I really don't think he would be likely to get a fair trial or reasonable sentence.

Again, define both "fair trial" and "reasonable sentence". What people in the UK deem as "fair" isn't the word of the world is it? We call countries barbaric for having the death sentence, yet i'm sure they look at us and think we're stupid and thick for just letting people off with petty crimes.

Gary McKinnon knew the deal before he hacked in. As i've said several times, I don't think he could have expected the USA to just ignore what he did. The US does make an example of people like this because they lost thousands of lives in a terrorist attack - and what KcKinnon did was to attack the computers of the biggest anti-crime organisation on the planet.

He brought this all onto himself. If he has to spend the rest of his life in jail, then so be it. It's all his own fault.

Add into the equation that he was offered a plea bargain which the US said it felt free to ignore if it felt like it and it is difficult to have much faith in their system.

I don't see how that was wrong?

Incidentally, I guess that senior teenage American legal officers have never heard of the "Chaos Computer Club", Markus Hess or Karl Koch.

I haven't, am I missing out?

 

[dangerstat]

Gary McKinnon knew the deal before he hacked in. As i've said several times, I don't think he could have expected the USA to just ignore what he did. The US does make an example of people like this because they lost thousands of lives in a terrorist attack - and what KcKinnon did was to attack the computers of the biggest anti-crime organisation on the planet.

He brought this all onto himself. If he has to spend the rest of his life in jail, then so be it. It's all his own fault.

Well yes and no. No one would really expect a 60 year + sentence for unauthorized access of computer systems without any major extraction / use of the data obtained. The crime was committed in the UK and it's really a legal trick to say otherwise, and he should have been tried under the computer misuse act here.

The Americans seem to want to make an example of him, which is something the UK shouldn't be supporting in my opinion. The Americans should be happy that we'll deal with the case, and leave it at that.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Gary McKinnon knew the deal before he hacked in. As i've said several times, I don't think he could have expected the USA to just ignore what he did. The US does make an example of people like this because they lost thousands of lives in a terrorist attack - and what KcKinnon did was to attack the computers of the biggest anti-crime organisation on the planet.

He brought this all onto himself. If he has to spend the rest of his life in jail, then so be it. It's all his own fault.
I haven't, am I missing out?

Asperger's Syndrome, if he legitimately has it, suggests that he didn't know the deal or consequences of his actions.

Gary McKinnon, if convicted and placed in the US penal system, will have a very hard time and a potential 60 year sentence.

Proportionate to his crime ? I don't think so.

 

[RDM]

Gary McKinnon, if convicted and placed in the US penal system, will have a very hard time and a potential 60 year sentence.

Have the yanks ever said anything about a 60 year sentence? I thought that was the possible maximum if you read the law in a certain way and then publicised by the "Free Gary" mob? Wasn't the original suggestion something similar to 4 years or the like?

 

[Von Smallhausen]

I don't know RDM. I have only read the maximum and I used the word potential as well.

 

[Tute]

Well yes and no. No one would really expect a 60 year + sentence for unauthorized access of computer systems without any major extraction / use of the data obtained. The crime was committed in the UK and it's really a legal trick to say otherwise, and he should have been tried under the computer misuse act here.

The Americans seem to want to make an example of him, which is something the UK shouldn't be supporting in my opinion. The Americans should be happy that we'll deal with the case, and leave it at that.

Maybe they're worried that we'll do what we normally do and give him a slap on the wrist and send him on his way?

Asperger's Syndrome, if he legitimately has it, suggests that he didn't know the deal or consequences of his actions.

I an inclined to believe this is rubbish. And if it is true, he should in a secure place where he can't do damage to himself or others if he "doesn't know the deal or consequences of his actions".

Gary McKinnon, if convicted and placed in the US penal system, will have a very hard time and a potential 60 year sentence.

Really? Prison in "punishment" shocker!

Proportionate to his crime ? I don't think so.

Proportionate? In UK law, probably not. But he waived that right when he hacked into an American computer system.

It goes back to what I was saying earlier. Should I be allowed to damage another country if I do it from the safety of another?

 

[Von Smallhausen]

I an inclined to believe this is rubbish. And if it is true, he should in a secure place where he can't do damage to himself or others if he "doesn't know the deal or consequences of his actions".

Quite possibly but a mainstream US prison is hardly the best place for him I would say.

Really? Prison in "punishment" shocker!

The US system is notoriously bad for assaults, gang culture and both physical and sexual abuse.

Mr McKinnon being passed around for some cigarettes or some drugs to gratify others is hardly a fitting punsishment. Do you think that is rubbish ?

 

[Sumanji]

Extradite?! HELL NO!

This guy is a legend, and should be used as a strategic military asset to further gain intelligence on the US. In fact, might as well feed him lies that other countries harbour extra-terrestrial material, then we can unleash him on China, India, Korea etc.

 

[PermaBanned]

I'd just like to point out that 'hacking' does not constitute breaking the law in any way. Most of us here have probable dabbled with 'hacking' at some point - since it is simply programming. You hack the code to your liking.

 

[Tute]

Quite possibly but a mainstream US prison is hardly the best place for him I would say.

a) It's his own fault if he ends up there. This could have been avoided.

b) If he feels that, then he should go appeal to a US court to have him placed in a unit where he will be protected.

The US system is notoriously bad for assaults, gang culture and both physical and sexual abuse.

Mr McKinnon being passed around for some cigarettes or some drugs to gratify others is hardly a fitting punsishment. Do you think that is rubbish ?

I think you're certainly sensationalising it a lot to try to prove your point.

Abuse of prisoners happens everywhere in the world - McKinnon just wants a trial here because the sentencing is a lot more lenient. It's hardly a reason to not have him extradited.

Not am I in any way condoning the abuse of prisoners.

 

[Tute]

I'd just like to point out that 'hacking' does not constitute breaking the law in any way. Most of us here have probable dabbled with 'hacking' at some point - since it is simply programming. You hack the code to your liking.

Computer Misuse Act 1990?

 

[PermaBanned]

Unauthorized access to computer material

(1)
A person is guilty of an offense if—

(a)
he causes a computer to perform any function with intent to secure access to any program or data held in any computer;
(b)
the access he intends to secure is unauthorized; and
(c)
he knows at the time when he causes the computer to perform the function that that is the case.

(2)
The intent a person has to have to commit an offense under this section need not be directed at—

(a)
any particular program or data;
(b)
a program or data of any particular kind; or
(c)
a program or data held in any particular computer.

(3)
A person guilty of an offense under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to both.

I believe this is the part in question. I'll admit, not quite as catchy as hacking but it just pains me to hear it used in this way.

 

[dangerstat]

Computer Misuse Act 1990?

Tute, that covers UNAUTHORISED access to computer systems, hacking can be anything from making your OWN hardware do "neat things" to writing overflows for your OWN software. These are hacking and NOT illegal in any way.

The truth is, that if the 60 year sentence was imposed it'd be largest sentence ever passed in the states for hacking / computer crime and completely unjust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_convicted_computer_criminals