Should goverment fines/penalties be set in conjuntion to how much you earn ?

[PureAppleJuice]

You are assuming that people show remorse for their crimes, which isn't true. I don't thin Osama is sitting in his cave feeling guilty over how naughty he was a few years back...



That doesn't make sense as it is contradictory...

How so? I'm all for legal immigration. I've got no qualms with, for example polish migrants coming here and supposedly 'taking our jobs'.
I was just saying I don't really have an opinion if we should be deporting those who commit crimes. And i'm not sure if we should 'help' illegal immigrants in forms of benefits and the like.


Hmmm I see what you mean about the Osama thing but that's a different kettle of fish. I'm pretty sure Ian Huntley is feeling a bit **** in prison.

may i ask why it is fair that a doctor have to give more of his money away, than a shop assistant?

Because they have more money to give away to the state. 40% of £60,000 isn't such a blow. 40% of say £10,000 is a big blow. Someone on £60,000 can still live very comfortably after tax.

I'm just using the higher income tax bracket as an example.

The taxation system in my opinion is quite fair, though perhaps we need a higher tax bracket for the even higher earners. Say £80,000 plus.

 

[Things change I've changed]

/\ edit that sweary out dude.

 

[Samtheman1k]

How so? I'm all for legal immigration. I've got no qualms with, for example polish migrants coming here and supposedly 'taking our jobs'.
I was just saying I don't really have an opinion if we should be deporting those who commit crimes. And i'm not sure if we should 'help' illegal immigrants in forms of benefits and the like.

Someone else answered it elsewhere in this thread in that you mention that immigration is only a good thing, and then point out two bad points

 

[Tefal]

How so? I'm all for legal immigration. I've got no qualms with, for example polish migrants coming here and supposedly 'taking our jobs'.
I was just saying I don't really have an opinion if we should be deporting those who commit crimes. And i'm not sure if we should 'help' illegal immigrants in forms of benefits and the like.


Hmmm I see what you mean about the Osama thing but that's a different kettle of fish. I'm pretty sure Ian Huntley is feeling a bit**** in prison.

remorse for your crimes is different to regret of being caught.

 

[PureAppleJuice]

/\ edit that sweary out dude.

Ty

Someone else answered it elsewhere in this thread in that you mention that immigration is only a good thing, and then point out two bad points

Fair point. I think I just didn't emphasise that the good points greatly outweigh the bad points. But when i'm arguing FOR immigration on OcUK forums i'm obviously going to lose that argument

remorse for your crimes is different to regret of being caught.

So what, you're saying we should execute them then? Oh and edit that quote it's got my sweary in it! hehe

We're all going really off topic, it's quite funny Sorry OP

 

[Samtheman1k]

Fair point. I think I just didn't emphasise that the good points greatly outweigh the bad points. But when i'm arguing FOR immigration on OcUK forums i'm obviously going to lose that argument

That is subjective though, what is your measurement criteria?

 

[snowdog]

Because they have more money to give away to the state. 40% of £60,000 isn't such a blow. 40% of say £10,000 is a big blow. Someone on £60,000 can still live very comfortably after tax.

I'm just using the higher income tax bracket as an example.

The taxation system in my opinion is quite fair, though perhaps we need a higher tax bracket for the even higher earners. Say £80,000 plus.

They don't want to give away the money though, they might have better stuff to buy from their money, for example, a lot of people think this ''green tax'' is a complete waste of money.
I'd still agree with paying more, if the gov used that money wisely ( if I'd be in the UK, an underground motorway under the town center of london comes to mind) or a high speed line between London - Manchester - Middlesbrough - Edinburgh.

Or upgrade 25% of all ''express roads'' ( 2 or more lanes per direction) into motorways.

That's tax I'd pay for, I don't want to pay for some birds that seem to be moving out of the country to a different place or whatever, or pay for some war in the middle east, or pay for some French farmers...

Use the money on:
Infrastructure
Education
Health
and (true) Safety ( true as in, not on more traffic police, but more cops on the street patrolling or searching for thieves and catching other criminals.)


They prefer paying for a new Audi RS4 or Nissan GTR though above blowing up some dirt in the middle east.

 

[Bear]

Don't you think that a poorer person would also like to keep more of their own cash ?, they are having just as big hit on their income in relation to how much they earn, when I was working on minimum wages I was earning around £720 a month, of that I was paying around £160 tax a month, do you not think having some of that back would have made a big difference ?, even though I was paying a large some of tax (in relation to how much I was earning), even though it left me with hardly enough to pay the rent I was proud to pay that money, was that wrong ?, so your saying a low income earner can't be proud to pay his/her taxes even though they take as big a hit in relation to how much they earn and how it effects their lives, (more so even), it's only the poor rich folk that are hard done by because they've worked so much harder than everyone else lol and they deserve not have to pay as much tax , yet the poorer working class man/woman who paying tax effects them more is proud to pay (well I was) into the system, I can't help feeling from the tone of people in here that the working class are the ones with the better work ethic, just opinion my opinion mind.

They already do if you havent noticed, some people pay more because there is another tax bracket.


Im not saying anything of the sort, stop trying to be a whiner playing the poor man, Ive been there before and I dont go whining about the wealthy should have to pay more, I also didnt say anything about weathly people working harder, although I would say they work smarter. Its you that is putting all this self righteous poor man bull crud in that post not me.

What I did say was that generally no one would say they want to pay more tax and the only people that think the tax system is fair are the ones that are most likely to benefit from it or they ones that dont know what they are talking about.

 

[Tefal]

Because they have more money to give away to the state. 40% of £60,000 isn't such a blow. 40% of say £10,000 is a big blow. Someone on £60,000 can still live very comfortably after tax.

I'm just using the higher income tax bracket as an example.

The taxation system in my opinion is quite fair, though perhaps we need a higher tax bracket for the even higher earners. Say £80,000 plus.

but the person on 10k doesn't pay 40% do they?

The doctor clearly works harder for his money, yet has to give more of it away why exactly?

why should the people that earn more pay a higher percentage, surely that's just punishing them because they work harder for their money.

And don't you try telling me being a CEO where your decisions every day could cost hundreds of people their jobs and thousands of people millions of pounds, is in anyway easier than sitting at a till at tesco.

Why because you earn more, the key word here being EARN, should you have to give more away, how is that fair?

yes actually i think bear's way may say it better, not nessicerally harder in every case but smarter.

 

[Things change I've changed]

Poor people should pay the same percentages as rich people in income tax.

that's just plain silly, most low income earners would be out on the streets if they had their wages cut any lower, the effect that this would have on minimum wage earners would be devastating, the reason very rich pay a higher percentage in tax is because they are in a unique position to be able to contribute to society more than a low income earner with out having a detrimental effect on there life style.

 

[snowdog]

that's just plain silly, most low income earners would be out on the streets if they had their wages cut any lower, the effect that this would have on minimum wage earners would be devastating, the reason very rich pay a higher percentage in tax is because they are in a unique position to be able to contribute to society more than a low income earner with out having a detrimental effect on there life style.

Then surely they should be able to ''decide'' more what the gov does with THEIR money, eg. get more priority with votes ?

I'm sorry but I find it ridiculous some guy working in tesco's his whole life as a cleaner can decide what to do just as much ( coz his vote counts the same) with the money a doctor or ceo payed.

The tesco guy may be paying 100 a month for tax, while a CEO may pay 20k, and then the guy paying 100 decides just as much what to do as the guy that pays 20k.

 

[Tefal]

that's just plain silly, most low income earners would be out on the streets if they had their wages cut any lower, the effect that this would have on minimum wage earners would be devastating, the reason very rich pay a higher percentage in tax is because they are in a unique position to be able to contribute to society more than a low income earner with out having a detrimental effect on there life style.

did he say the poor's tax should be raised?

 

[PureAppleJuice]

but the person on 10k doesn't pay 40% do they?

The doctor clearly works harder for his money, yet has to give more of it away why exactly?

why should the people that earn more pay a higher percentage, surely that's just punishing them because they work harder for their money.

And don't you try telling me being a CEO where your decisions every day could cost hundreds of people their jobs and thousands of people millions of pounds, is in anyway easier than sitting at a till at tesco.

Why because you earn more, the key word here being EARN, should you have to give more away, how is that fair?

yes actually i think bear's way may say it better, not nessicerally harder in every case but smarter.

Because they earn more they can give more back. It's fair in that it's the distribution of wealth. People on lower incomes need the help. How can we fund a free health service and free education if everyone was paying the same, lower percentage in tax?

Of course i'm not going to tell you being a CEO is easier. In fact, CEOs hold a lot of responsibility and give a lot back just in the form of jobs and the like.

 

[Pottsey]

“percentage in tax is because they are in a unique position to be able to contribute to society more than a low income earner with out having a detrimental effect on there life style.”
Basically you saying if someone increase’s there work hours from 37 to 60 hours per week they should pay more money for fines because they have been working harder! Not only do they have less free hours they pay more tax. Thats detrimental effect on there life style.


The people who work less hours should get less fines. Yeah right that sounds fair. Its already bad enough that the more hours you work the higher amount of tax you pay.

 

[snowdog]

Because they earn more they can give more back. It's fair in that it's the distribution of wealth. People on lower incomes need the help.

Why would they though, I'm sure they can find better stuff to do with their money, they might have worked 2 or 3 times as long than some poor dude ?

How can we fund a free health service and free education if everyone was paying the same, lower percentage in tax?

You can't hence ( was it you? ) the guy saying the rich should leave is talking rubbish.
Rich leaving= Country lost, no more money for important things.

 

[Tefal]

Because they earn more they can give more back. It's fair in that it's the distribution of wealth.

how is that fair, distribution of wealth??? So it would be ok to steal as long as you do it from big corporations or the rich as well they can spare it, and you need it?

Maybe people on higher tax brackets then should be offered the choice if they want to pay more (I don't see how you can say give back, as they are not receiving from the poor) surly that would be more fair than saying, well you've made something of your life dragged your self up and are now earning money to have the life you want. great now give us 40% of the what you've earned because we want to redistribute it.

 

[RDM]

Because they earn more they can give more back.

Small point, they don't give more back, it is taken.

It's fair in that it's the distribution of wealth.

What is fair about the redistribution of wealth?

How can we fund a free health service and free education if everyone was paying the same, lower percentage in tax?

Possibly by not wasting 47% of government money on "Social Protection" i.e. benefits. And where is this free health service? It is paid for.

 

[Things change I've changed]

They already do if you havent noticed, some people pay more because there is another tax bracket.


Im not saying anything of the sort, stop trying to be a whiner playing the poor man, Ive been there before and I dont go whining about the wealthy should have to pay more, I also didnt say anything about weathly people working harder, although I would say they work smarter. Its you that is putting all this self righteous poor man bull crud in that post not me.

What I did say was that generally no one would say they want to pay more tax and the only people that think the tax system is fair are the ones that are most likely to benefit from it or they ones that don't know what they are talking about.

Your notice in my post when I said I was talking about earning minimum wage I was talking in past tenths, that was many years ago so I'm not playing the poor man as you so put it, and I'm also not whining about the wealthy, I come from a family of successful business men/women, I choose not to follow in their foot steps because I've seen how the extra money they earned corrupted their thinking and views on the poor, please don't mistake me as some illiterate homeless hippie because that would be a mistake, I just believe in a fair and equal system for all, we all have to contribute by way of paying tax's into the system for the benefit of the country, when I'm on full hours I sometimes earn around £480/£550 a week, thats not a bad wage, well I don't think so anyway, I do have to put in a lot of hours for that though,

Do I think that I am automatically 'smarter' (as you put it) than everyone that is earning lower than I am, thats completely ridiculous, and then you say "no one would say they want to pay more tax", well I have to pay more tax when I work more hours, and I want to pay it and I'm dam proud of paying it, I don't care that I have to pay more than a low income earner because I'm proud that I'm in a position to be able to pay money into a system that can help the underprivileged, to help support our NHS and the infrastructure of this country, god if it was left to most higher earners on this forum they would cut the tax in half and rather see this country go to the dogs, does no one care about the welfare of their birth place anymore, or even the welfare of the less fortunate, it really saddens me tbh, I've worked in many different jobs in the past, from cleaning, to running a small computer business, in all instances my opinion has been the same,

I'm proud to live in this country and pay my tax's what ever I earn, yes I know our government isn't perfect but then there never will be a perfect government for everyone, we have it pretty dam good over here compared to the rest of the world, yes I have some rather idealistic socialist ideas/theory's but I'm not so deluded as to start thinking that we can just change this county/society into a socialist utopia lol, that just wouldn't work, not atm anyway, I do feel though that over time the government will become more libertarian and open to adopting more socialist type ideals/policies.

Then surely they should be able to ''decide'' more what the gov does with THEIR money, eg. get more priority with votes ?

I'm sorry but I find it ridiculous some guy working in tesco's his whole life as a cleaner can decide what to do just as much ( coz his vote counts the same) with the money a doctor or ceo payed.

The tesco guy may be paying 100 a month for tax, while a CEO may pay 20k, and then the guy paying 100 decides just as much what to do as the guy that pays 20k.

just because they have payed more in to the system how does that automatically make them qualified to be able to dictate what happens to this country, thats what we have educated politicians that have been elected by the 'people' to help govern this country under a democracy, imagine a government who's policies were governed by only the rich, going on the attitudes of most people in this thread the 'lower class' section of society would all be made homeless.

 

[Morba]

No of course not, you could for example have a banding system put into place for low/mid/high earners, a band for each class, obviously the unemployed would come under 'low'.

That would be wrong, if anything it should be means tested and based on available income after allowable outgoings, otherwise you could put someone in a high band in a worse position than someone in a low band.

 

[Things change I've changed]

That would be wrong, if anything it should be means tested and based on available income after allowable outgoings, otherwise you could put someone in a high band in a worse position than someone in a low band.

yes your probably right, I was just giving an example, how it would be implemented is obviously open to debate, I agree with what your saying, based on "available income after allowable outgoings" seems quite fair.