Should you upgrade brakes when you upgrade power

The bottom line is, why would you spend money tuning the engine (or doing an engine swap) to get more power if you aren't going to use it?

More acceleration generally means you're at a higher speed when you need to start braking, so if you are making use of the power then it's quite likely the standard brakes will be lacking. Many standard road cars driven enthusiastically will run out of brakes pretty quickly.

Greboth said:
for road driving where everyone obviously sticks to the indicated speed limits
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You've not done much driving then :p
 
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I upgraded the discs,moods and fluid on my s2000 after I'd done a load of suspension work. I was getting to the braking point on track at higher speeds as I could carry through so much more speed.

My theory was that braking from, say, 120 to 100 opposed to 100 a 80 required more effort on the part of the braking system to cope with the heat generated. Whether that was right or not it seemed to do the trick.

I'm going to remap the Fabia (if they fix it!) once it is out of warranty. The gains in % terms are big (180PS to close to 220 bhp on some of the remaps) so I might do the 300mm disc upgrade and put some better discs, pads, fluid and maybe even braided lines. Reality is though, existing brakes have felt fantastic on it even when having a B road blast, so it isn't exactly lacking to start with.

I doubt however mine is the kind of car where this is really relevant, and we are talking about adding 100-150-200 etc bhp, at which point brakes and suspension requirements should IMO be considered.
 
has no one considered upgrading the handling as you increase the power. if you can turn faster you wont have to wipe off as much speed for corners
 
My lard wagon had poor brakes as standard, once i changed the turbo and loads of other bits, which resulted in a power increase of around 80 - 100bhp i decided the brakes had become borderline dangerous.

Instead of investing in a 312mm disc conversion using the standard calipers i decided to pick up some Monoblock Brembo 4 pots and discs / pads to match, after some fun and games with pad selection the car now stops on a sixpence with 0 brake fade.

IMHO brakes and tyres are more important than adding power.
 
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Depends on the car, some are fine (S2000 with a Supercharger) some aren't, many examples above.

Even then it depends on use:
A standard car may need upgrading brakes because of how it is used rather than how much power. A slow big car will need brakes upgrading if the owner lives on the top of the mountain
 
S2000 + Supercharger + track on Honda pads, discs and fluid is ok? Or do you just mean standard calipers and updated pads disc and fluid /everyday driving? I'm sure some of the guys I spoke to said it was fade city on track with a supercharger

Best brake upgrade ever for me was the master cylinder brace on the s2000. Wow that was awesome for feel.
 
Haven't really been happy with the braking power of my ST220 since I got it and that's on a stock setup.
 
so i'm guessing from the varied responses here that to say that because the weight of the car hasnt changed everything will be fine, is well, a bit silly? as there is clearly a lot more to it
 
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Conanius said:
S2000 + Supercharger + track on Honda pads, discs and fluid is ok? Or do you just mean standard calipers and updated pads disc and fluid /everyday driving? I'm sure some of the guys I spoke to said it was fade city on track with a supercharger

Best brake upgrade ever for me was the master cylinder brace on the s2000. Wow that was awesome for feel.
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I dont recall this thread being about track usuage, just a simple questions regaring upgrading power = upgrading brakes rule.


This is kind of my point, you need bigger brakes if your usage requires it.
 
Simon said:
I dont recall this thread being about track usuage, just a simple questions regaring upgrading power = upgrading brakes rule.


This is kind of my point, you need bigger brakes if your usage requires it.
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Fair comment. On the road I never ever got fade with the stock setup, even on a Ricky run.
 
If your car didn't need bigger brakes before the upgrade, and you don't put it on a track now, it doesn't need bigger brakes after. Brakes absorb and dissipate kinetic energy, which is a function solely of speed - the fact you can accelerate faster does not increase the energy to be got rid of. If you drive at the same speed (and you probably will - the speed you drive at is only minimally related to what the car is capable of for most people). Unless you have feet on both pedals at once, all that matters is the speed that you are doing when you brake, which is unrelated to power in road driving.

Thus, driving on a public road, it's hard to see how the extra performance will need bigger brakes unless you are using it to go a LOT faster than you did before. Bearing mind that big power upgrades result in small increases in top speed (as an example, I have about 65% extra power to get a 12% increase in top speed), then your road speeds will probably not change much anyway, so this still doesn't need bigger/better braking. ONLY a change in driving style needs bigger brakes, and then really only if you go on a track now, but didn't before. And it's the track use that matters, not the extra power. The kind of roads where you can get brake fade are few and far between, and again, your speed on them probably isn't much higher now.
 
Meridian said:
If your car didn't need bigger brakes before the upgrade, and you don't put it on a track now, it doesn't need bigger brakes after. Brakes absorb and dissipate kinetic energy, which is a function solely of speed - the fact you can accelerate faster does not increase the energy to be got rid of. If you drive at the same speed (and you probably will - the speed you drive at is only minimally related to what the car is capable of for most people). Unless you have feet on both pedals at once, all that matters is the speed that you are doing when you brake, which is unrelated to power in road driving.

Thus, driving on a public road, it's hard to see how the extra performance will need bigger brakes unless you are using it to go a LOT faster than you did before. Bearing mind that big power upgrades result in small increases in top speed (as an example, I have about 65% extra power to get a 12% increase in top speed), then your road speeds will probably not change much anyway, so this still doesn't need bigger/better braking. ONLY a change in driving style needs bigger brakes, and then really only if you go on a track now, but didn't before. And it's the track use that matters, not the extra power. The kind of roads where you can get brake fade are few and far between, and again, your speed on them probably isn't much higher now.
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the thing i wondered though was what about the fact that ok your not always going to be going significantly faster when you reach a corner, but greater acceleration surely means your covering the same distance in less time, so the potential for the brakes to have to dissapate a similar amount, probably more, heat, but in less time, it maybe isnt a huge difference but surely a consideration?.

surely the equation johnnycoupe posted regarding kinect energy and heat, would be followed by another equation showing how fast that heat is dissapated, and a factor of that would be time?
 
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Meridian said:
If your car didn't need bigger brakes before the upgrade, and you don't put it on a track now, it doesn't need bigger brakes after.
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That would all depend wouldn't it, and you seem to be assuming that after a power upgrade you will still drive at 60mph max, rather naive.

If you drive down very tight NSL country roads which are up and down hill, i.e. Buxton, you may now be in the situation in which you can achieve greater speed between turns, which calls for the need to scrub off excess speed, which means greater heat.
 
He's saying, before and after 'power upgrades' you will only reach the same max speed, this assumption seems to be based on the fact that regardless of how much power you will never exceed the NSL......

Out of the many things he doesn't factor in is, what if you wish to brake later than oem items will allow..... You don't need to exceed the speed limit for this.
 
Meridian said:
If your car didn't need bigger brakes before the upgrade, and you don't put it on a track now, it doesn't need bigger brakes after. Brakes absorb and dissipate kinetic energy, which is a function solely of speed - the fact you can accelerate faster does not increase the energy to be got rid of. If you drive at the same speed (and you probably will - the speed you drive at is only minimally related to what the car is capable of for most people).
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And I think this is were we should put the fallacy to bed. Explain why you would go to the expense of giving your car more power if you are the kind of driver that potters around never exceeding the speed limit? Also explain why higher performance models in a manufacturers range tend to come with larger brakes?

Certainly if you do waste you money on more power and drive no differently, then the brakes are doing no more work. But who on earth would do this?
 
naefeart said:
My physics is a bit rusty, but surely this statement is incorrect -?
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it is.

more acceleration = more speed

more speed = harder braking

e.g.

2 identical cars go for a corner, 1 has 500BHP, the other has 250BHP, the brakes are identical.

Both cars go to brake at the same point, car 1 will be travelling considerably faster thus requiring one of two things. Either to have superior brakes to stop in a faster time or to start braking earlier
 
Zuban said:
surely the equation johnnycoupe posted regarding kinect energy and heat, would be followed by another equation showing how fast that heat is dissapated, and a factor of that would be time?
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Exactly, you have a way of increasing the heat into the brakes over same time period, ie work done. Yet there is nothing to improve the rate at which heat is rejected from the brake or the heat capacity of the brakes.

Work done is what matters and is why torque is useless unless you can apply it at a decent rate, work done, power.
 
NathWraith said:
it is.

more acceleration = more speed

more speed = harder braking

e.g.

2 identical cars go for a corner, 1 has 500BHP, the other has 250BHP, the brakes are identical.

Both cars go to brake at the same point, car 1 will be travelling considerably faster thus requiring one of two things. Either to have superior brakes to stop in a faster time or to start braking earlier
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Which is correct, but his assumptions are based on the fact you reach the same max speed in both cars, as in the legal limit.
 
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