No i was in Morrisons...with Mummy.
Silence at work - rememberance
- Thread starter elmarko
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No i was in Morrisons...with Mummy.
Soldato
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Don't quite understand. Can you expand on why silence makes you laugh? Or was it due to something you saw?
Well today i was shopping and the customers couldn't ask for help, they had to wait anxiously as the employees wouldn't speak. I could tell some of the foreigners were getting annoyed. It all made me wanna laugh.
@PooBrain: Not exactly sure how it would be funny. Any 'foreigners' will also have to wait, as I would in return for anything that was done in their country.
I would ask you to quote where I attempted to dictate, to a person I have never met, how to show respect.
However I haven't, so I won't.
That would be absurd.
I was questioning who you meant by 'they'. You wrote it 3 times, therefore it was aimed at someone. I was genuinely wondering which group/era of soldiers whom you don't respect, in your own words.
Some foreigners don't recognise it you twonk, they were getting vexxed. You'd had to have been there.
How you live your life is up to you, however even if you do follow the kind of principles set out in the OP, it shouldn't impact on the relevance of a moments silence in remembrance of all those fallen...its a moment to reflect on their sacrifice not a substitute for following the aforementioned principles the rest of the year.
They are not mutually exclusive.
They are not mutually exclusive.
Oh indeed - I fully agree they are not mutually exclusive. Many seem to have mistaken my point (not saying you are) - I wasn't saying that people shouldn't appreciate the sacrifices made (not at all), just that firstly upholding the principles they died for is ultimately more important than simple reflection.
I had two grandparents who fought during the world wars, both of which cared significantly more about instilling morals & values than any kind of appreciation & respect.
On a personal level, I don't need a day or an event for reflection - I'm already aware of these elements & dislike generally being told how exactly I should show my respect. As somebody mentioned earlier, it should be a personal thing people do by choice - not with the threat of condemnation/abuse if a person chooses a different method.
It's a big of a huge leap people make when they assume that just because person X may not follow the 'standard mandatory respect action' then they don't care about the sacrifices made or appreciate our history.
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Soldato
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I this for remembering the dead from the WW's strictly or does it include more recent escapades like Iraq?
It is about remembering the dead from and that served in all conflicts, military and civilian. The politics of War are immaterial...it is the principle of the sacrifice they gave that is important, not the Government policies and decision making that may have led to any specific conflict. The remembrance is about the people, not the war.
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I think it depends on the situation and the environment you are in...I do not follow a moments silence if I am in my own home or alone, I do however if I am in a group that collectively is doing so. Like you, I don't need a specific day in which to show respect, I do that in other, more personal ways, however to not honour a silence if I was in a group situation would be disrespectful, both to the people I was with and also to the principle of remembrance itself.
You should feel no obligation and no one should force that obligation on you, however respect is something that is often implied in your actions and to honour a moments silence in a collective situation is simply good manners, whether you are invested in it or not.
Soldato
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Why would the politics or reasons for war be immaterial? If the motive behind the war was something disgusting for example killing babies in Africa to control world population (not that it was or remotely close) should we honour fallen soldiers that voluntarily took part in such activities?
In many peoples eyes, British and non British see the Iraq war as illegal where British troops took part in slaughtering 100,000s of Iraqi men, women and children, only looking to defend their lands from aggressors. Soldiers CHOSE to take part in this war, if you believe they chose wrong, why do they deserve honouring?
Wouldn't it be tacit approval? Or similar.
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I know you have a particular viewpoint and you are entitled to it, to say that British Soldiers intentionally and with malice aforethought went into Iraq and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent people defending their homes is rubbish, the Iraqi leadership was doing quite well at killing its own population long before the British got there and the soldier on the ground was no more aware of their Governments alleged deceptions as were anyone else, the majority went into Iraq to help the Iraqi people and remove a dictator who was, as far as they were concerned threatening the stability of the region, supporting terrorism against western countries and slaughtering his own people.....but your mind is made up that all British servicemen are evil Muslim murderers as we have had this discussion before and I'm not particularly interested in indulging you again. However, my point stands because individually Soldiers didn't choose to go into Iraq, the Government choose to do that...and as I said Remembrance Day isn't about the actual wars themselves, but the people who died in them, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the dead don't have that luxury, whether the wars they died in were flawed or not, the basic principle that they gave the Ultimate Commitment to defend something they believe in deserves some recognition in my view.
If you don't want to observe Remembrance Day because you feel the way you do then don't...it's as simple as that.
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Soldato
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Did 100,000s not die as a direct result of British involvement? Including civilians and Iraqi soldiers defending their lands from an aggressive force?
Are soldiers incapable of rational thought? Are soldiers not responsible for their own personal actions, or is following orders now a viable defence? History has suggested otherwise.
Sorry but that's not my viewpoint and never has been, as I don't believe all British service are evil not even remotely nor all of them are murderers.
It's a shame we have to lump soldiers actually defending our country with soldiers involved in imprisoning an entire nation.
Are soldiers incapable of rational thought? Are soldiers not responsible for their own personal actions, or is following orders now a viable defence? History has suggested otherwise.
Sorry but that's not my viewpoint and never has been, as I don't believe all British service are evil not even remotely nor all of them are murderers.
It's a shame we have to lump soldiers actually defending our country with soldiers involved in imprisoning an entire nation.
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Like I said, the rationale given at the time was sound and you are speaking in hindsight, something those that died in Iraq did not have the luxury of having. Its easy to judge sitting in your comfortable home listening to twitter feeds and Facebook groups, but the reality is somewhat different....soldiers did not go around slaughtering innocent people, in the main they were defending them from a brutal regime initially and a multifaceted insurgency and then subsequent civil war shortly after...no one is denying mistakes were made and that the process followed was flawed, I have discussed this in depth in the past, but the political situation of any given conflict is not what we are remembering.
The soldier who is killed defending a school of Sunni Children from a group of Shia insurgents, does he not deserve some form of remembrance for that sacrifice? The soldier killed defending Kurdish villagers from Iraqi revolutionary Guards, does he not deserve the same?
That is what Remembrance Day is about, the individual sacrifice, not the political ideologue that instigated the conflict in the first place.
You are assuming that the orders given were illegal and were to murder innocent civilians...they were not, quite the contrary. The ground forces primary responsibility was to avoid civilian casualties, that formed the basis of the RoE given to every British Serviceman in Iraq.
That is how you come across I'm afraid, you clearly elucidate that opinion in your post in this thread, you specifically accused the British of slaughtering hundreds of thousands of men, women and children...the language you used and the subsequent questions you asked clearly imply that they did slaughtered people through personal choice and with full knowledge of the situation in Iraq as we know it today (No WMD etc).
Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion, but if you disagree with honouring Remembrance Day then do not, no one is forcing that obligation on you.
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Soldato
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If the rational was sound why was there so much opposition to it? I appreciate your position at the time soldiers believed what they were being told was true, that then does not excuse soldiers after the truth was revealed. Not forgetting soldiers are like the population and would have been divided too. Anyhow Let's just leave the Iraq thing alone as I am aware of your views on it and I feel my point is being lost within.
What I disagree with is your statement we should honour fallen soldiers regardless of their action, which is simply wrong. For example do we want to honour Soldiers killed in Jamaica, by runaway slaves who formed 'Maroon' communities and fought against the British soldiers. Fact is British soldiers throughout history have done some disgusting things, in various periods of time. Why not honour he actions of soldiers doing just things and not just all soldiers.
I would love to honour soldiers from the WW's, and various other wars, but refuse to blanket honour like you suggest.
What I disagree with is your statement we should honour fallen soldiers regardless of their action, which is simply wrong. For example do we want to honour Soldiers killed in Jamaica, by runaway slaves who formed 'Maroon' communities and fought against the British soldiers. Fact is British soldiers throughout history have done some disgusting things, in various periods of time. Why not honour he actions of soldiers doing just things and not just all soldiers.
I would love to honour soldiers from the WW's, and various other wars, but refuse to blanket honour like you suggest.
That's not what I said...if a soldier has broken the law then they should be held to an even greater account than a civilian, like the Royal Marine convicted of murder recently....I hold no truck with such people, they disgrace the very principles that should be upheld...however, when remembering our fallen, we are remembering the sacrifice of those who did so in honour rather than individual actions themselves..which are either honoured or punished in other ways.
Fact is that war is a miserable and hellish business, in all conflict there are some who do despicable and disgusting things...the two world wars are no exception....but you cannot honour each individual soldier based on their individual actions in a practical way, therefore we have Remembrance Day..which is about the end of war and remembering those, military and civilian who gave their lives with honour to that end...it isn't a blanket honour for every soldier who ever served regardless of their actions as individuals...but the principle.
Honour those you choose in the way you choose, there is no blanket obligation on you.
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Soldato
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I'm not talking about solely individual actions, let's faces throughout history entire wars have been wrong. Because war is hellish does not excuse unjust causes that begun as unjust. I feel its a slap in the face the people that suffered at the hands of these soldiers or wars., by us honouring them all. I'd rather stand up and say "not in my name" than just blanket honour everyone. I wonder if we assigned some of these to begin with unjust wars to another country, for example Russia, would we still be having this discussion? I bet some former colonial country's would be disgusted by us honouring the British armies actions in that particular time in history. Colonial India would be one.
Seriously? Do grow up.