Smart Motorways

[Freakbro]

Oh and back to lorry drivers. I know there are lorry drivers here. so you tell me. Why (And indeed how are you able to psychologically) do you guys drive literally for miles in convoys of up to six vehicles (The most I counted yesterday) with only enough space between you to park a mini??

All the following drivers can see are the container doors of the truck in front.

The only information that you have about road conditions ahead are the brake light of the truck in front!

We are not talking a 2 second gap here (Even supposing that two seconds in enough for a 44 ton vehicle in the first place) It is more of a 200mS gap!

I am amazed that accidents are not far more common. And this isn't down to the skill of highly trained professionals here. It is down to sheer bloody luck. And relying on luck to keep you and those around you safe to this insane extent isn't just foolhardy, it is reckless and there should be Police out there stopping those concerned and giving them damn tickets!

It's never appeared safe to me, a car driver who tries to follow the breaking distance recommendations, but I have always assumed they do this to slip stream for fuel efficiency, it can make quite a significant difference for lorries.

@Scania might be able to comment?

 

[bainbridge]

Why is nobody focusing on the real problem here?

Why are people ending up in stranded vehicles on Motorways?

There will always be a proportion of people who genuinely suffer from a completely unexpected event for which they bear zero responsibility – an incident entirely beyond their control. But what proportion of vehicle stranding events are caused by this/

What proportion of people stranded with a flat tyre after a blowout didn’t check their tyre pressures from one MOT to the next? What proportion of people with a break down had been ignoring a funny noise, water leak, etc etc? How many people get into and drive off in vehicles every single day without even thinking about making sure they are roadworthy? I constantly see people happily driving around in cars with defective headlights, this is probably the tip of the iceberg in terms of the number of people knowingly or negligently driving around in rubbish cars that are a breakdown waiting to happen.

If you think about it the number of potential scenarios that take a perfectly serviceable vehicle from 70mph to 0mph in the space of a few hundred yards are few and far between.

Remember the entire dual carriageway network has no formal hard shoulder either.

On the Autobahns if you run out of fuel you get fined, good idea imo.

 

[Orionaut]

I've lost count of the amount of times lorry or van drivers are hammering down the inside lane when it's got an x on it to show it's closed.

Now you mention it, Saw this yesterday too.

Mind it doesn't help when Highways cries Wolf over this. Despite miles of lane closure/"X" on the gantries, No obstruction ever materialised.

(Yes I know it might have been cleared by the time I got to it, but even so. Experiences like this are what gives people the confidence to continue down closed lanes)

 

[jaybee]

There was a Panorama documentary about this the other day called "Britain's Killer Motorways?" showing the deaths that have occurred due to breakdowns on the smart motorways. The official advice has been to remain in the vehicle and await rescue but.... I've told my loved ones/friends to get out the car and over the barrier where possible as soon as you can (if you have managed to get over to lane 1), and as far away from the road and car as possible. This is obviously not always easy if the embankment is steep and slippery but it's worth it.

In fact, dare I say it, I would think arguably it's safer to be stood in the middle of a motorway up against the inside railing if you happen to break down suddenly in lane 3 (and far back from your car) then it would be to remain in it as a sitting duck.

The program concluded at one point that people are stationery in their car on a smart motorway having broken down, for over 30 minutes on average per incident.

One poor child died in an incident where the section of motorway was raised basically like a bridge so they literally had no where to go other than sit in their car in lane 1. They were rear ended by a lorry.

Why is nobody focusing on the real problem here?

Why are people ending up in stranded vehicles on Motorways?

There will always be a proportion of people who genuinely suffer from a completely unexpected event for which they bear zero responsibility – an incident entirely beyond their control. But what proportion of vehicle stranding events are caused by this/

What proportion of people stranded with a flat tyre after a blowout didn’t check their tyre pressures from one MOT to the next? What proportion of people with a break down had been ignoring a funny noise, water leak, etc etc? How many people get into and drive off in vehicles every single day without even thinking about making sure they are roadworthy? I constantly see people happily driving around in cars with defective headlights, this is probably the tip of the iceberg in terms of the number of people knowingly or negligently driving around in rubbish cars that are a breakdown waiting to happen.

If you think about it the number of potential scenarios that take a perfectly serviceable vehicle from 70mph to 0mph in the space of a few hundred yards are few and far between.

Remember the entire dual carriageway network has no formal hard shoulder either.

Whilst this is true that people neglect car maintenance, the unexpected does happen and the motorways have to be built to deal with such situations where abrupt stops occur. Sometimes an accident in itself can leave car stranded in the middle of the carriageway awaiting the impending collection of a lorry at 2am on a cold, dark morning. There are plenty of reasons why a car could suffer an immediate stop. The majority would hopefully be rollable to the next safe refuge point as per the design of smart motorways, but in fact when they rolled out the first smart motorways, these refuge points where supposed to be something like 700 metres apart. Some "smart" motorways today have them at 2.5 miles apart. Try rolling for 2.5 miles uphill after a catastrophic failure or complete loss of power.

 

[[TW]Fox]

What about dual carriageways? Same speed limit, no hard shoulder and tighter corners..

 

[Steampunk]

The problem isn't smart motorways it's the drivers who aren't smart, I've lost count of the amount of times lorry or van drivers are hammering down the inside lane when it's got an x on it to show it's closed.

That's why you can't get rid of the hard shoulder as a safety zone. Sure it would work if everyone was a good driver, but we know that many, many people are not. You can't design a system like that and put people in it with the assumption that they will always do the right thing at the right time.

It's like designing a system on the assumption that "nothing will ever go wrong and no one will ever make a mistake". It's just waiting to go badly wrong, and when it's something like smart motorways, people can and do get killed.

 

[Django x2]

What about dual carriageways? Same speed limit, no hard shoulder and tighter corners..

Traffic generally moves slower on dual carriageways because the same volume of traffic is moving in 2, rather than 4 lanes. HGVs are also able to overtake which often assists in stemming the speed of smaller vehicles. To be fair, I have rarely seen a broken down vehicle completely isolated in lane 1 of a dual carriageway, but more often than not, they are as far over on, or to, the kerb as possible unless it's an HGV.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Traffic generally moves slower on dual carriageways because the same volume of traffic is moving in 2, rather than 4 lanes.

Not in my experience and I can't go anywhere without using one, which I do all the time. I rarely need to drop out of cruise control.

 

[wesley]

What about dual carriageways? Same speed limit, no hard shoulder and tighter corners..

dual carriages have traffic light crossing, roundabouts etc

on motorway some drivers get trance after a while.....

 

[weathmatth]

What about dual carriageways? Same speed limit, no hard shoulder and tighter corners..

On pretty much all of the dual carriage ways i drive on, there tends to be a larger gap/margin between the inside of lane one and the edge of the road plus you don't always have impact barriers, so any broken down vehicles can usually get completely of the road, but with most smart motorways that gap/margin was the hard shoulder, so now you literally have half a meter between the inside of lane one and a barrier, nowhere to go at all.

 

[[TW]Fox]

dual carriages have traffic light crossing, roundabouts etc

Some do, some don't. Many are effectively 2 lane motorways, some are 3 lanes.

 

[Orionaut]

What about dual carriageways? Same speed limit, no hard shoulder and tighter corners..

People always say that, but there are major diferences.

DC's hare mostly 2 lane each way only. It is easier to see if it is safe to change lane abruptly (On a multi lane motorway, at night all you can see in the mirrors are lights. Not which lane they are in. Nor is it easy to tell if somebody is going L3>L2 at the same time as you are wanting to go L1>L2, and this applies both day and night. It just takes longer to check if it safe to change lane)

There tend to be less HGV's, A lot less! And you do not generally get the same scenario as on motorways with maybe half a dozen trucks all driving on the governor all bumper to bumper (I think they are the main danger on motorways generally and smart ones in particular because of the HGV drivers idiotic and reckless driving behaviour)

DC's are also generally more interesting roads to drive on. And there are more reasons to have to watch out at junctions/ sideroads and whatever.

Motorways are mostly boring and even the best drivers are vulnerable to "Highway Hypnosis" Even if this only delays your reaction by 1 second, this is still a long time in terms of whether you can avoid a collision or not.

As particularly regards "Smart Motorways" By definition, these operate specifically when traffic is heavy. Which makes my various points even more of a factor

And there are more differences too, But that is enough for now...

 

[Phemo]

It depends on the road though. Take the A30 west of Exeter or the A38 south of Exeter as examples. They're almost just like driving on a motorway, some of the junctions are practically as good as motorway spec ones too - it's just 2 lanes with no hard shoulder but you can drive for long distances without any roundabouts/junctions of the sort. It's as close to motorway driving as you can possible get without being on an M road.

 

[Scania]

It's never appeared safe to me, a car driver who tries to follow the breaking distance recommendations, but I have always assumed they do this to slip stream for fuel efficiency, it can make quite a significant difference for lorries.

@Scania might be able to comment?

I try my best to leave a big enough gap between me and what’s in front to be able to see past it, therefore I’m much further back from an artic than I am to a car but I still try to leave as much gap as possible, the trouble is no matter how big or indeed small a gap you leave someone will fill it!

It’s infuriating especially when your fully loaded and need the stopping distance - when empty a modern truck can out brake a light van with ease which brings me on to slip streaming/driving like a cretin whichever one you choose it amounts to the same thing.

Unfortunately many operators in their infinite wisdom have introduced “fuel bonuses” basically a financial incentive to save fuel,usually along the lines of the better the trucks mpg the bigger said bonus is.

With fuel being the biggest cost for most operators it’s understandable why but they haven’t thought it through as it encourages the stupid to slipstream.

If you slipstream the rig in front you can easily gain 2-3mpg if your close enough to it, you literally put yourself in the hole in the air the front truck makes and you’ll notice the engine ease off a touch as it longer has to push through the air.

Your eyes are fixated on the brake lights and you have to hope they are actually working(!) plus in these days on air suspension you can’t tell if the truck in front is heavily laden and therefore will stop slower or if it’s empty and can out brake a van........

It’s a crazy thing to do as it’s a lottery as to what could - and is highly likely - to happen.

My current employer has now ended fuel bonuses but they remain commonplace in the industry which explains a lot of the tailgating you see, the rest is the increasing percentage of “truckers” driving for a job because they don’t have any skills other than driving and not displaying any of the professionalism you need to do this job safely for yourself and those around you.

Sorry for the tirade, it’s a bit of a pet hate!

 

[Nasher]

You have to be very close to slipstream something properly. Almost no braking space at all.

 

[Scania]

And on topic, smart motorways are incredibly dumb along with way too many of the drivers be it in trucks or cars using them, it’s a perfect solution if everyone drives properly and follows gantry instructions etc which they simply don’t for whatever reasons.

As I do every week, I’ve had a few lairy moments this week coming across a stranded vehicle in lane 1 (the former hard shoulder) the last one was this morning around 04:50 near Holmes Chapel (M6 Jct 18).

The sooner they are canned the better.

 

[Nasher]

Many people also just refuse to drive on the "hard shoulder" because it's not safe. Which defeats the whole point of it.

The chances of being rear ended at high speed are so high if you break down on one, especially at night. I'd be out of the car and leaping over the barrier like it's about to explode.

 

[Begbie]

Many people also just refuse to drive on the "hard shoulder" because it's not safe. Which defeats the whole point of it.

The chances of being rear ended at high speed are so high if you break down on one, especially at night. I'd be out of the car and leaping over the barrier like it's about to explode.

Same.

I actually broke down on a smart motorway, and I was terrified. Thankfully the car started up and I moved on.

 

[The_Arbiter]

Agree with most things said.

I'm glad that i don't have a mobile worker job in the sense of doing 50-120 miles a day. I know people who got their lgv license and love it though.

Another issue is the difference in driving styles. Vans, LGVs, new drivers with their mates, old folk, daily business commuters, caravan club, trailer people, etc. Whilst everyone has been taught different ways of driving and barely anyone shown how to drive on a motoway. Talk about a disaster.

But yeah, expand the archaic motoways and ditch the bandage fix (smart motoway)

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

You have to be very close to slipstream something properly. Almost no braking space at all.

We used to slip stream the double decker buses on our bikes. If you got in the sweet spot it would pull you along hardly needed to pedal at all
Was actually quite hard to get out of teh slip stream once you got in it, timing the braking was tricky as well, hard to be in the sweet spot and still see teh brake lights...