So it goes . . .

[elmarko]

The problem is, what should be about remembrance & support for peace has ended up being a symbol of nationalist pride for some of the population (the mindset required to justify violence against others, future wars & more civilian deaths).

Akin to the EDL who love nothing more than world war 2 remembrance events to puff up some fake nobility, in reality they are exactly the kind of people who would have lined up to join the wehrmacht - out of a twisted sense nationality & bigotry.

 

[balky12]

The problem is, what should be about remembrance & support for peace has ended up being a symbol of nationalist pride for some of the population (the mindset required to justify violence against others, future wars & more civilian deaths).

You aren't wrong.

With fear of turning this thread into another one of 'those' threads, want to guess how this came about?

 

[Schlong&Stable]

The problem is, what should be about remembrance & support for peace has ended up being a symbol of nationalist pride for some of the population (the mindset required to justify violence against others, future wars & more civilian deaths).

Akin to the EDL who love nothing more than world war 2 remembrance events to puff up some fake nobility, in reality they are exactly the kind of people who would have lined up to join the wehrmacht - out of a twisted sense nationality & bigotry.

What would have been bad about lining up to join the Wehrmacht? If it hadn't been for the excesses of the Holocaust, Hitler would probably have been thought of in worse terms than Napoleon, in the West at least. Its not like everyone knew what was going on when Germany was on the offensive, and by the time news was coming out, they were fighting for national survival.

I'd say even signing up to fight in the SS would have not necessarily have made someone any worse than most people who fought. Many were simply ardent anti-communists, which is absolutely a worthwhile cause.

 

[anything I don't mind]

It is quite pathetic how everyone goes over the top with the poppies. I am not against remembering the world wars but the way everyone behaves every year is way over the top. Especially last year with all those ceramic poppies. You do realize that poppies are what heroin comes from right? Why not just drop the poppies and stop raising money and just remembering it with out all that. It turns in to a cult following of sorts. People get so offended when you say its over the top like you are insulting something. Most of the people from ww1 are already dead and i do not support any of the modern wars so why should i support the modern military by buying a poppy, it makes no sense? At this point its simply turned in to the military exploiting the patriotism that people had for the world wars era in to a support for the modern military. Not everyone supports the actions of the military in modern ways, there was 100k people protesting anti-war before the iraq war.

 

[Amp34]

This is like that daft PC idea of apologising for slavery.

Society moves on, we see things differently, the good thing is we really like and admire the Germans now so the situation is better.
We even quite like the Japanese although Anime is a lot to do with that.

If we glassed the ME tommorrow we'd probably still hate them in a hundred years time and we'd have '**** you' celebrations every year.

Luckily people like you are in the minority in this country, there are places in the Middle East that you'd probably get on well with the locals though...

 

[Amp34]

This.

Tough titties to Fritz for starting two world wars and losing both of them. Thanks to Bismark and Hitler there are ancestors of mine scattered across French fields and at the bottom of the Med.

You think Germany was the only one to blame for the start of the First World War?

Hat do they teach in history these days?!

 

[eatcustard]

No, coventry was a metal works industry, bombing it would have a big effect on our arms production.
bombing Dresden had no effect on the war, allthough the yanks did try and justify it years later.

But Fritz did not bomb the factory's they bombed the entire city.

Bombing Dresden was justified, it was an enemy city.

 

[Amp34]

We're lucky that the victors choose what is deemed a war crime.

A firestorm bombing was as bad as a nuke being dropped on a city. The results were horrific and the eye-witness accounts from WWII are tough reading. We're lucky that the Germans never successfully used similar tactics against us.

That's the reality of most wars/insurrections.

If we had won the American war of independence the founding fathers wouldn't have been called heros, they would probably have been shot in public and vilified as terrorist leaders...

 

[Amp34]

oh boy wish I hadn't started reading about WW1 now. seems no-one has a straight answer on who's fault it is / who started it.

That's probably because real life is not black and white (which many on this forum do not appear to understand). The reality is some countries are more to blame than others but most countries involved have to carry some portion of the blame.

 

[LockyOK]

What would have been bad about lining up to join the Wehrmacht? If it hadn't been for the excesses of the Holocaust, Hitler would probably have been thought of in worse terms than Napoleon, in the West at least. Its not like everyone knew what was going on when Germany was on the offensive, and by the time news was coming out, they were fighting for national survival.

I'd say even signing up to fight in the SS would have not necessarily have made someone any worse than most people who fought. Many were simply ardent anti-communists, which is absolutely a worthwhile cause.

Ah, so . . .

Millions of Jews were rounded up and shipped off to God knows where to be exterminated and nobody noticed . . . interesting . . .

Meanwhile, many Germans shared your pathological hatred of Communists and volunteered to join up to invade Poland, Belgium, France, Holland, etc. whilst forming an alliance with Russia?

 

[Energize]

Will we have another thread about Hiroshima in a few months?

I agree that murder like these indiscriminate bombings can never be justified no matter what the "greater good" is, (you can try to justify anything under that statement). But the past is the past.

 

[Amp34]

wold that be like the discriminate targeting of civilians in London and other city's the Germans bombed the **** out of for years?

You're forgetting, we retaliated at the time and bombed the **** out of German cities. One of the reasons Dresden was different was because it was near the end of the war and, more importantly, because of the sheer scale of it.

 

[balky12]

It baffles me how people try to justify/ condemn historic acts of this nature (World Wars). Life was completely different. No one here has and hopefully will never experience anything like that.

WW1 and WW2 were both horrific but needed to happen. Trying to isolate single decisions, acts, tactics is just nonsensical.

The only thing that baffles me more are the apologists. Yes perhaps in the past we have done wrong. But why does the modern society have to apologise for things done many moons ago? Like people have said, we learn from them, and move on.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

Ah, so . . .

Millions of Jews were rounded up and shipped off to God knows where to be exterminated and nobody noticed . . . interesting . . .

Yes, that is pretty much what I am saying. It wasn't common knowledge that people were being sent off to extermination camps and concentration camps are not really that controversial in themselves. The extermination was managed principally by specialist SS units, so your average soldier would have probably not known very much about them.

Meanwhile, many Germans shared your pathological hatred of Communists and volunteered to join up to invade Poland, Belgium, France, Holland, etc. whilst forming an alliance with Russia?

Several SS units were made up of soldiers who explicitly requested not to fight on the Western front. The war in the France, Holland and so forth was pretty tame and in general German soldiers should feel no shame for that side of the conflict. Criminal acts occurred of course, but on they were no worse than most other wars of conquest.

 

[TheMightyTen]

Trying to isolate single decisions, acts, tactics is just nonsensical.

And there I think you raise a very valid point. I attended a lecture given by Hew Strachan and the gist of it was it's very comfortable to view history by a set of index markers i.e. a particular year or a particular moment in a battle etc. because it enables us to compartmentalise everything but the problem with that is that all events are fluid and influenced by pressures and in turn create pressures. Really what we should attempt to do is view events as a vector where possible and not isolate things extant from all events.

He likened it to the same problem particle physicist have and the Schrödinger's cat thought experiment in that by trying to isolate and define events in history we in a way change them because they are now defined as an entity separate from the events they are conjoined with. It was all a bit mind blowing at the time but as I've got older I increasingly understand his philosophical viewpoint and although it is a difficult way to understand history it is very rewarding and has gone a long way to removing some of the socio-political bias I (and all of us) unintentionally have when forming our opinion and interpretation of our past.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

You think Germany was the only one to blame for the start of the First World War?

Hat do they teach in history these days?!

I have no idea as I left school in 1981.

I was taught that Britain was brought into the war by the German invasion of Luxembourg and Belgium.

Here's what so much smarter historians think:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26048324

Germany would appear to be in the frame for playing a significant part in WW1 kicking accord to 9/10 esteemed historians.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Will we have another thread about Hiroshima in a few months?

I agree that murder like these indiscriminate bombings can never be justified no matter what the "greater good" is, (you can try to justify anything under that statement). But the past is the past.

You might want to read up on the estimated US and Japanese casualty figures for Operation Downfall before making your mind up about Hiroshima.

 

[Amp34]

I have no idea as I left school in 1981.

I was taught that Britain was brought into the war by the German invasion of Luxembourg and Belgium.

Here's what so much smarter historians think:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26048324

Germany would appear to be in the frame for playing a significant part in WW1 kicking accord to 9/10 esteemed historians.

Yet as has been discussed by several people here it's not quite as simple as "Germany started it". Besides, Britain being brought into the war was not the start of WW1.

I'll also clarify that I'm not suggesting Germany didn't play a significant part in WW1 kicking off, hence the way I phrased the post.

 

[murah]

it was 70 years ago, can't we just learn from and forget the dark chapters in our history?
War is War there is no good act of war it will all be horrific all military powers committed something heinous in those times.

Especially considering many of us were not even conceived around then thus the only basis we have is versions of history that will naturally be fairly biased (or even in some cases incorrect, incomplete or at worst fabricated)

 

[Tunney]

WW1 and WW2 were both horrific but needed to happen.

That's an interesting take on WW1. Most people at the time said that it was a war that couldn't happen. The economies of Europe were booming. Why would anyone jeopardise that? It certainly didn't need to happen. Every single European power came out of the war in a weaker position than when it started. It was a senseless war.