So, this post office palaver then

[partycan]

I think....if i recall correctly.

New accounting system introduced.
The system is basically rubbish, with accounting errors.
Post masters get blamed for stealing.
Post Office prosecuted them (I did not know they had powers...I thought it was only the CPS).
They were forced to admit guilt, pay back money wrongly accused or go to prison.

All because the system was wrong and nobody questioned the programming, or at least, those that did, had no powers.

To add the Fujitsu Tech Support had remote access to the postmaster accounts and were able to change the takings without the knowledge or consent of the postmaster. This was denied for years.
The TV show was compelling viewing and it has a 5th part that is an actual documentary of the real life people involved in the whole thing.

 

[Haggisman]

Everyone trusted the computer and what could be “shown” in black and white.

And yet anyone who has ever worked with computers knows this is a terrible mistake

 

[fez]

Its completely astonishing. Heads should roll and people should end up in prison. They have ruined thousands of lives, caused deaths and lied through their teeth. The fact they had an entire department dedicated to manually fixing errors means they were absolutely aware of the issues.

I don't believe for a second that Paula Vennells didn't know exactly what was going on and if she did and she persisted in the cover up she should never see the light of day. This is the banking crash all over again. People wilfully ruining lives for their own financial gain and greed and the consequences are....nothing. Who gives a crap if she returns her CBE. She should be in jail and bankrupt. Perhaps she will appreciate what she did to hundreds of people then.

 

[john_smith]

Some other postoffice pullovers are availble: https://www.redbubble.com/shop/royal+mail+sweatshirts

 

[Diddums]

Is that better?

 

[swillsy]

I think the issue was that there were soo many people who all of a sudden suspected of stealing (980 I think!) and no-one said that maybe the system is at fault and told them that there weren't widespread issues with stealing etc. The CPS also didn't flag the fact that all of a sudden they were prosecuting loads of Post Office people either. So basically widespread nonsense and no-one flagging that it was all a bit weird.
I can't believe how long the compensation is taking and also not sure why the tax payer is paying it when there are private companies at fault - RM and Fujitsu.

 

[cu3ed]

I think the issue was that there were soo many people who all of a sudden suspected of stealing (980 I think!) and no-one said that maybe the system is at fault and told them that there weren't widespread issues with stealing etc. The CPS also didn't flag the fact that all of a sudden they were prosecuting loads of Post Office people either. So basically widespread nonsense and no-one flagging that it was all a bit weird.
I can't believe how long the compensation is taking and also not sure why the tax payer is paying it when there are private companies at fault - RM and Fujitsu.

I believe though Royal Mail kept it in house..IE if you pay back the money we wont have you charged, and many did find a way to pay back the money, also this at a time when their where MANY more post offices about, so it didn't cross over many same police desks to " join the dots" of what the bigger picture was. So Royal Mail were acting on their own without any [police involvement, which I cant see how that is legal?

 

[JonRGV250]

At the very least Ed (away with the fairies) Davey should be hung drawn and quartered.

 

[Haggisman]

Is that better?

No, I want meringue!

 

[fez]

Everyone trusted the computer and what could be “shown” in black and white.

No they didn't. They knew and they didn't want to admit it. The longer it went on for, the higher the consequences of putting their hands up but they knew. They will have known from early on. I work as a programmer and bad data and things like this do not fly under the radar for long.

Can well see how postmasters would be advised by their lawyers that their trials before magistrates (who love a good computer says no) wouldn’t go well and to take credit.

Of course they would. Going up against a massive company like that with borderline unlimited money. The fact that the settlement from the post office was something like £58m and the actual victims got £12m and apparently the lawyers were doing them a favour is one of the most shocking things to me.

What is also shameful is the lack of consideration by the prosecution lawyers as to why there were so many thefts of an identical nature and why so many of the people denied theft. Where there are over 900 the fact no one wanted to believe a computer program could be inaccurate is frightening. I can also see the real difficulty in challenging it in the magistrates court. I can picture the reception you’d get saying you want to get expert evidence and to demand disclosure and access from the post office.

I'm sure all of this will come out over time but I imagine they were repeatedly told by the post office that their system has been checked and double checked and its perfect. They are also paid to do a job. That job was to prosecute.

Up to a point. One of the guys the post office hired to look into it ended up changing to the other side when he saw the truth that the post office were the villains in all of it.

 

[drakulton]

Why not just call it a meringue and be done with it?

You're thinking of a Greek balaclava.

 

[Voltar]

The thing I forgot to add is how absolutely tragic this is.

Another is that these were not CPS prosecutions, they were private prosecutions brought by the Post Office. In the same way train companies bring them for fare evasion.

One to watch is a company that does private prosecutions of market traders.

 

[Haggisman]

You're thinking of a Greek balaclava.

Nope, definitely a Post Office Pavlova!

(I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in that you're intentionally referencing the ski mask rather than the tasty nut and honey based Mediterranean treat...)

 

[JonRGV250]

Apparently 27 cases against the sub postmasters were brought by the CPS.

 

[Fubsy]

Guys, I like a good joke, but this isn't really the thread for it. This scandal has contributed to people taking their own lives.

 

[Voltar]

No they didn't. They knew and they didn't want to admit it. The longer it went on for, the higher the consequences of putting their hands up but they knew. They will have known from early on. I work as a programmer and bad data and things like this do not fly under the radar for long.



Of course they would. Going up against a massive company like that with borderline unlimited money. The fact that the settlement from the post office was something like £58m and the actual victims got £12m and apparently the lawyers were doing them a favour is one of the most shocking things to me.



I'm sure all of this will come out over time but I imagine they were repeatedly told by the post office that their system has been checked and double checked and its perfect. They are also paid to do a job. That job was to prosecute.

Up to a point. One of the guys the post office hired to look into it ended up changing to the other side when he saw the truth that the post office were the villains in all of it.

The lawyers and courts clearly did trust the black and white.

How you’d run a trial in the circumstances as they were is not a question answered by the resources of the post office. The seeming difficulty must have been having to come up with a way of properly challenging the computer system in the face of what appears cut and dry evidence.

Really hope the truth does all come out. I can’t easily agree that theprosecuting lawyer at the magistrate’s court would have been complicit in a cover up though. Their job was to prosecute and the can only do so on the basis of what the evidence they are provided with. That evidence we know now was all tainted.

But the fact that someone in there knew that the information was dodgy and buried it is appalling.

People lost everything and some their lives over this. Truly hope that heads roll.

 

[adam cool dude]

People need to go to prison over this but it will never happen.

 

[sidimmu]

Finally this is coming to the front of the news and peoples minds.

Whats more alarming to me is that you have top management of Fujitsu who have pleaded complete ignorance to this and refused to admit their software is at fault and has resulted in numerous;
convictions
jail times
bankruptcies
suicides

Whilst also allowing their support team to directly access a post office's system, using the SPM's credentials which allows for all of their activity to be hidden.
Speaking as the nephew of a previous SPM who gave up their post in 2002.

This is before we even speak about the CPS who have prosecuted hundreds of individuals against a faulty system and allowed for false information to be used in a court of law.

 

[LackyT]

I believe though Royal Mail kept it in house..IE if you pay back the money we wont have you charged, and many did find a way to pay back the money, also this at a time when their where MANY more post offices about, so it didn't cross over many same police desks to " join the dots" of what the bigger picture was. So Royal Mail were acting on their own without any [police involvement, which I cant see how that is legal?

Exactly, so basically extortion! Pay this random figure our flawless IT system has provided or else.... Thanks for the profit

 

[The Funktopus]

People need to go to prison over this but it will never happen.

I mean, they did, just the wrong ones.

And what’s with the thread title, it’s a pullover now? Is it all starting to unravel?