Solar panels and battery - any real world reccomendations?

[Ron-ski]

Meter and the consumer unit are at the same location, under the stairs bang in the middle of the house

Exactly the same location as mine, I managed to run 25mm SWA cable from there out to a detached garage and then back in to the same location to feed the house. There's always a way.

@b0rn2sk8 I'd take a Victron system every time over a Tesla system, you can't beat having complete control

 

[tamzzy]

damn...£14k,,,

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Exactly the same location as mine, I managed to run 25mm SWA cable from there out to a detached garage and then back in to the same location to feed the house. There's always a way.

@b0rn2sk8 I'd take a Victron system every time over a Tesla system, you can't beat having complete control

I get it, I really do.

The obvious argument against it is that a Victron system wouldn’t be Mrs Sk8 approved and if you have to pay for someone to design it, install it, set it all up, programme it and support it, you aren’t getting any more value out of it compared to just getting an off the shelf product.

Edit: They are ultimately different solutions for different audiences and different user needs.

If you are posting on OCUK asking if your quote for an off the shelf system is competitive, a victron system just isn’t for you…

 

[SupeR130]

Hi Guys,

I have this system designed and wanted to check if this was a good price for the system. I can also add 20 optimisers for an additional £1k.

Please can I get your expert advice?

Quote1:
System output: 8.2kW
Price: £12,735

20 x Trina Vertex S 410w All Black Panel solar panels
Panel warranty: 15 years
Performance Guaratnee: 25 years
GivEnergy **Gen3** 5Kw Hybrid Inverter inverter
Emlite Hybrid Only Bi-directional Meter ECA2
GivEnergy 9.5kWh LiFePO4 Battery - Gen2
BirdBlocker clips for square tube (box of 50)

 

[200sols]

'a lot more refined' is putting it mildly

This is where we tend to disagree, I don't think the product itself is over priced. Sure you'll be able to buy the same capacity for half the price but the cells are only half the product and of course you could put together a DIY solution for a lot less.

The gateway alone is £800 and is optional, 6kw inverter isn't cheap, its for a liquid heating/cooling system, the systems are scalable, its outdoor rated, has excellent software, a long warranty, proven reliability and decent support. None of that stuff is free.

@danb21t - an alterative but similar option to the Tesla Powerwall is the GivEnergy All In One, its basically the same product but slightly cheaper. It lacks a liquid heating/cooling system but its a few hundred cheaper and has a slightly better ecosystem (charger, smart plugs etc).

I'd take a PW2 or an AIO over those fogstars everytime.

 

[200sols]

It’s a mix of south east and south west, no shade other than natural shade from the transition of the sun over the property.

Meter and the consumer unit are at the same location, under the stairs bang in the middle of the house.

As above
Good to know regarding their workmanship, they get rave reviews online

You'd probably save a fair bit going for a basic string inverter then, you dont need the optimisers without shading and they'll just add another potential point of failure. They do get great reviews yes, actually nice to see a company take pride in their work.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Hi Guys,

I have this system designed and wanted to check if this was a good price for the system. I can also add 20 optimisers for an additional £1k.

Please can I get your expert advice?

Quote1:
System output: 8.2kW
Price: £12,735

20 x Trina Vertex S 410w All Black Panel solar panels
Panel warranty: 15 years
Performance Guaratnee: 25 years
GivEnergy **Gen3** 5Kw Hybrid Inverter inverter
Emlite Hybrid Only Bi-directional Meter ECA2
GivEnergy 9.5kWh LiFePO4 Battery - Gen2
BirdBlocker clips for square tube (box of 50)

The price looks fine - I assume it’s east west as it’s a lot of panels for a 5kw inverter otherwise?

I’d avoid optimisers if you don’t actually need them. While they are generally reliable, they will be the first thing to fail and to replace them you’ll probably need scaffolding which will not be covered under warranty. If you must have them, personally, I’d be pushing for them to be loft mounted so they can be more easily serviced. Your installers will tell you that’s a pain in the back side and will cost more but if only a single one fails, you’ll be quids in compared to getting someone to go onto the roof to deal with it.

Edit: you should be able to get 435w panels for a similar price now and over 20 panels, that makes a material difference.

 

[Ron-ski]

I get it, I really do.

The obvious argument against it is that a Victron system wouldn’t be Mrs Sk8 approved and if you have to pay for someone to design it, install it, set it all up, programme it and support it, you aren’t getting any more value out of it compared to just getting an off the shelf product.

Edit: They are ultimately different solutions for different audiences and different user needs.

If you are posting on OCUK asking if your quote for an off the shelf system is competitive, a victron system just isn’t for you…

If it's got to go somewhere its seen or outside then yes a Victron system is not suitable, but he did mention a garage. Originally I just pointed out the vast difference in cost between a Tesla Powerwall, and a battery more than double the capacity, a battery that can be used with a multitude of inverters, it doesn't have to be a Victron.

As for you're last sentence, you are just so wrong, these systems are installed in everything from boats to very large homes, and I bet a lot of those people are a lot less than technical than someone posting on a computer forum.

@200sols That is of course your choice

Of course what you have failed to all realise whilst bickering is that a Victron system would highly likely cost more if you got an installer to install it, and I was never suggesting that he designed and installed his own system, just pointing out the vast difference in battery prices

 

[200sols]

I see no bickering

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

AIO (inc powerwall) are also less efficient if your generating solar to send to them.
Hybrid inverters will send DC to the batteries, where as an AIO will have the panels inverter convert to AC and then its converted back to DC by the AIO.

Makes no diff for grid charging but its extra conversion cycles. No biggie just overlooked by some.

 

[200sols]

The givenergy stuff and the PW2 come with long unlimited cycle warranties as well.

 

[danb21t]

Thanks for the responses, I've reached out another company just to see what their approach would be.
I'll report back.

 

[Ron-ski]

The givenergy stuff and the PW2 come with long unlimited cycle warranties as well.

They do, but the cells in the batteries I pointed out are good for 6000* cycles, that's over16 years at one cycle a day, also if choosing carefully a prebuilt battery can have its cells changed. A lot of prebuilt batteries have welded busbars, and thus the individual cells can't be changed.

* IIRC Fogstar state 4000, but the cell manufacturer states 6000, but if I was doing my system again I would buy prebuilt direct from China, knowing what I know now, but I appreciate that I'm not the average consumer.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

@Ron-ski the substance of my post is that the Powerwall (and similar) isn’t just a battery. If it was, you’d have a point but it isn’t.

You actually do have to pay for all the stuff that comes in that package and some of that isn’t tangible like the software and the support. Generally speaking if you want something that’s also a fully integrated product, it tends to be more expensive compared to separates.

The gateway adds a huge amount of cost and most people that have it, just don’t need it (me included). They also probably take more profit margin off it because of the name and that’s a fair criticism. The product is a lot cheaper than it used to be thanks to competition.

As for the wife approval factor, it’s not a complexity issue, she’s a lot smarter than me and has the qualifications to prove it.

It’s a she’s got better things to be thinking about issue. To her it’s an appliance that just needs to work. The compromise is I get a new toy which can be integrated into home assistant for me to mess around with. She gets a system which is well supported and is very easy to use if you just want to keep it simple.

 

[JackRegan]

.........

As for the wife approval factor, it’s not a complexity issue, she’s a lot smarter than me and has the qualifications to prove it.

It’s a she’s got better things to be thinking about issue. To her it’s an appliance that just needs to work. The compromise is I get a new toy which can be integrated into home assistant for me to mess around with. She gets a system which is well supported and is very easy to use if you just want to keep it simple.

It's the same here

An analogy I draw is the Powerwall is like a Synology/QNAP NAS. They seem over-priced for the level of hardware, you can easily build a better NAS for cheaper, but, it won't come with the support, apps and ease of use of the Synology/QNAP.

 

[Ron-ski]

I think a lot of people misunderstand Victron, they are a highly regarded manufacture, with a very good reputation, very high reliability, very flexible systems, fantastic support and it is certainly not cheap, especially if using an installer.

They can be set and forget as well, or like a lot of owners we tinker and program themselves etc.

They do lack app functionality with regard to smart tariff's (but don't most inverters), traditionally Victron was for boats, but has spread into off grid installations, and then more recently grid tied installations. They've recently released Dynamic ESS that works with smart tariff's, although not yet fully supported in the UK, they also have EV charging as well, I fully expect these area's to mature quite quickly - this is the beauty of Victron, you've basically got an easily updated OS running on a computer controlling the system, what other inverter can run Node Red or similar programming language?

If anybody is interested in learning then https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/ or their YouTube Channel would be a good place to start.

 

[tamzzy]

just wondering re: tesla powerwall vs a split hybrid inverter + batteries

the powerwall is fully integrated vs the usual split system
powerwall is ip67 rated vs variable depending on split system (i know my sunsynk system is ip65)
both the powerwall and my sunsynks have internet gateways and customisation
(support - not had to use it yet, so cannot really comment)

am i missing something else that puts the powerwall approx £2.5-3k dearer than a split system?

 

[200sols]

just wondering re: tesla powerwall vs a split hybrid inverter + batteries

the powerwall is fully integrated vs the usual split system
powerwall is ip67 rated vs variable depending on split system (i know my sunsynk system is ip65)
both the powerwall and my sunsynks have internet gateways and customisation
(support - not had to use it yet, so cannot really comment)

am i missing something else that puts the powerwall approx £2.5-3k dearer than a split system?

People will pay more for a premium product and premium brand name, simple as that really.

 

[tamzzy]

@200sols ah fair enough. nothing for me to regret my choice then

 

[b0rn2sk8]

just wondering re: tesla powerwall vs a split hybrid inverter + batteries

the powerwall is fully integrated vs the usual split system
powerwall is ip67 rated vs variable depending on split system (i know my sunsynk system is ip65)
both the powerwall and my sunsynks have internet gateways and customisation
(support - not had to use it yet, so cannot really comment)

am i missing something else that puts the powerwall approx £2.5-3k dearer than a split system?

Most hybrid inverters top out at 3.5kw from the battery, some will do 5kw. The power wall will do 6kw if I’m not mistaken. My GivEnergy AIO also does 6kw.

It’s AC coupled so they play nicely with any string inverter or any number of string inverters.

They are seamlessly scalable in up to (6?) power walls and as they each have their own inverter the power output also scales. The power output of hybrids don’t doesn’t scale and multiple hybrids can end up fighting each other if they can’t talk to each other.

They can be deployed in single phase or 3 phase configurations.

Its main USP is the gateway, it covers full grid isolation and failover to the battery in the event of a powercut, you’ll not notice unless you exceed the 6kw and trip the inverter. It will also keep any grid tied solar working if there is spare capacity in the system. Hybrids don’t typically offer this, at best you may get an EPS mode with a couple of sockets which you need to manually switch over in the event of a power cut.

They are a premium product which ultimately commands a premium price.

Edit: missed the liquid cooling/heating system for the cells - most hybrids don’t offer this either although heating is becoming more common.