South Korea Jeju air plane crash

Neither is it a safe place for an aircraft doing 150mph.
to suggest it would have the same survivability as hitting a reinforced concrete wall buried in a raised mound is ridiculous. Its not even remotely similar in strength.
It cleared 150m in 2 seconds. It was doing 150mph! But you're right, it probably would have exploded and caught fire way before it got to the sea.
it had barely touched the ground to reduce drag - it would slow quickly once its outside the wall.
would it be good? no. But the odds of a better outcome would be significantly higher and i don't know why you stubbonly refuse to see it.
 
would it be good? no. But the odds of a better outcome would be significantly higher and i don't know why you stubbonly refuse to see it.
Because it absolutely misses every other point. The aircraft had absolutely no business being there. The reg changes some folks are trying to enforce are here lack common sense frankly. There are airports in all sorts of conditions and terrains which are far worse than this one.

The conversation should be focused on everything that went wrong to make a piece of concrete 900m away from the safe landing zone even factor into the picture. Not some scapegoat bit of concrete. At this stage I am starting to think the Korean airline is peddling the concrete issue to avoid them being under the spotlight for the catalogue of errors their pilot (presumably) made.
 
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The conversation should be focused on everything that went wrong to make a piece of concrete 900m away from the safe landing zone even factor into the picture. Not some scapegoat bit of concrete. At this stage I am starting to think the Korean airline is peddling the concrete issue to avoid them being under the spotlight for the catalogue of errors their pilot (presumably) made.

Nobody's dismissing the other factors though, we simply don't have enough information to draw conclusions. What we can say with 100% certainty in the mean time is that a 100ft hollow aluminium tube gets decimated by a solid concrete wall.

We'll get to the other bits when the evidence is released, don't worry.
 
Nobody's dismissing the other factors though, we simply don't have enough information to draw conclusions. What we can say with 100% certainty in the mean time is that a 100ft hollow aluminium tube gets decimated by a solid concrete wall.

We'll get to the other bits when the evidence is released, don't worry.
dID yOu eVeN wAtCh tHe vIdEo - there is LOTS to discuss other than the block. And even the block is being discussed like a 4 year old; ignoring the fact it's within regulations, it's 900m from the sensible place a plane should stop, it's 50m shy of another wall, the plane was doing such a speed that a few twigs would have caused it a serious issue.
 
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The airport (a major one for international flights by the way, not some two bit local airstrip) has probably been this way for years. So who is supposed to regulate this and risk assess the airport? Why was this huge concrete structure never spotted before? A simple hazop review, done properly, would have picked up this risk.
Yup, it's the usual thing, but people will claim this has never happened before so we don't need to worry about it - but a google shows aircraft are hitting ILS antenna every now again and planes are making crash landings on runways and then ending up outside the airport perimeter. There's also planes landing short now and again, due to fuel or whatever. Whilst steps should clearly be taken to prevent these from happening in the first place, planes do and can crash. I don't think stating planes shouldn't be there in the first place would fly now, particularly in the UK where the HSE would require that the risk is ALARP. I would expect the regulations to now be updated to say that airports should take reasonable steps to ensure there's nothing in that area beyond the end of the runway that would cause a catastrophic loss of life like that. Conversely if there's a school or something at the other end of the airport perimeter it may actually be appropriate to have a hard boundary!
 
dID yOu eVeN wAtCh tHe vIdEo - there is LOTS to discuss other than the block. And even the block is being discussed like a 4 year old; ignoring the fact it's within regulations, it's 900m from the sensible place a plane should stop, it's 50m shy of another wall, the plane was doing such a speed that a few twigs would have caused it a serious issue.

is it? The International Civil Aviation Organization guidelines say any structure at the end of a runway should be built to break easily in the event of a collision.
ive seen other comments that guidelines say a berm should not be within 300m of the end of a runway, which this clearly was.

So what regulations have you seen as i don't think its very clear cut?
 
Yup, it's the usual thing, but people will claim this has never happened before so we don't need to worry about it - but a google shows aircraft are hitting ILS antenna every now again and planes are making crash landings on runways and then ending up outside the airport perimeter. There's also planes landing short now and again, due to fuel or whatever. Whilst steps should clearly be taken to prevent these from happening in the first place, planes do and can crash. I don't think stating planes shouldn't be there in the first place would fly now, particularly in the UK where the HSE would require that the risk is ALARP. I would expect the regulations to now be updated to say that airports should take reasonable steps to ensure there's nothing in that area beyond the end of the runway that would cause a catastrophic loss of life like that. Conversely if there's a school or something at the other end of the airport perimeter it may actually be appropriate to have a hard boundary!
In your googling how many have hit structures at 150mph?

How much longer would you like the runway?

Would you like it to be a directive (i.e. city airport basically closes, new York LaGuardia closes) or optional?
 
Just needs to be ALARP, we're not talking about forcing airports to divert the Thames :p
Id love to see the numbers on ALARP and what the algorithm would spit out for this one! Pilot totally negligent (presumably), not deploying landing gear or thrusters and landing half way down the run way. How likely is that to happen again?
 
it had barely touched the ground to reduce drag - it would slow quickly once its outside the wall.
would it be good? no. But the odds of a better outcome would be significantly higher and i don't know why you stubbonly refuse to see it.
Maybe not, it only takes one rupture to potentially spark a fireball anyway. It would have travelled a long distance at the speed it was doing. Many airports around the world have structures around them beyond the localiser structures that a plane doing this speed off the end of the runway would hit, imagine this at Heathrow, it would cause utter carnage beyond the airport. Are we saying that is unsafe now?
 
Id love to see the numbers on ALARP and what the algorithm would spit out for this one! Pilot totally negligent (presumably), not deploying landing gear or thrusters and landing half way down the run way. How likely is that to happen again?
The vast majority of airports tend not to have massive structures just off the end of the runway like that though - there has been plenty warnings that this could happen in that case.

I would assume Danlightbulb works in a similar industry to me where there was a "that'll never happen" incident that killed ~170 people that then led to sea change in the way risk was dealt with.

Edit: In the UK, whilst international air regulations would be applied, airports also must comply with COMAH regulations, so it's likely there won't be any airports with this sort of design in the UK as it should have already been risk assessed out.
 
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I do feel like this is a bit of a witch hunt on @dlockers and people are missing the point. We shouldn't react to every tragedy that occurs by enforcing new laws and regulations at significant cost and upheaval. There are shorter runways where if you do the same thing and go too far, you fall off a cliff into the sea. Should we ban that runway for being too dangerous? What about if the runway in this incident was an extra 10 miles long and he still hit the wall at the end of it? Should we still remove the wall then?

It's not as simple as blaming the wall. You are picking out the final, final cause of death, whilst ignoring the events before it which are much more relevant. It's hitting the perimeter wall very shortly after that anyway and if you want to knock that down as well, then it's going across the road wiping out anyone on that, and so on.
 
The vast majority of airports tend not to have massive structures just off the end of the runway like that though - there has been plenty warnings that this could happen in that case.

I would assume Danlightbulb works in a similar industry to me where there was a "that'll never happen" incident that killed ~170 people that then led to sea change in the way risk was dealt with.

Edit: In the UK, whilst international air regulations would be applied, airports also must comply with COMAH regulations, so it's likely there won't be any airports with this sort of design in the UK as it should have already been risk assessed out.
In the UK it would be hitting a structure beyond many airport limits. You simply can't regulate for a plane belly rolling 150mph off the end of the runway. No landing gear drag to slow it down either. There is a BP Garage about 650m off the end of Heathrow 09R.
 
Or the actual sea just a few meters off of the end of Liverpools airport.... Or a 10 lane highway at the end of LaGuardia (and a river at the other end)....

Just bonkers trying to regulate such an incredibly rare event. May as well dryclean my captain hindsight outfit and totally ignore every root cause if that's what we're learning lessons from on this one.

Unfortunately the usual suspect news outlets are peddling the story so to appease public sentiment I imagine some vanity regulation will be updated.
 
I think there's a difference between a solid concrete structure only a couple hundred metres from the end of the runway, in line with it, and within airport limits, than a sea or road outside airport limits. You can't easily compensate for the latter, you clearly can for the former. Minimise risk as far as reasonably practicable.

If that plane had carried on into a sea (not off a massive cliff of course) it would likely have come to a smooth stop and just floated there.

A road, yep more damage for sure but probably wouldn't have exploded in a fireball.
 
Or the actual sea just a few meters off of the end of Liverpools airport.... Or a 10 lane highway at the end of LaGuardia (and a river at the other end)....

Just bonkers trying to regulate such an incredibly rare event. May as well dryclean my captain hindsight outfit and totally ignore every root cause if that's what we're learning lessons from on this one.

Unfortunately the usual suspect news outlets are peddling the story so to appease public sentiment I imagine some vanity regulation will be updated.
So you're getting in first before even the official enquiry tells you that you are wrong and it will all be a fix just to appease public opinion?
Brilliant. :cry:
 
I think there's a difference between a solid concrete structure only a couple hundred metres from the end of the runway, in line with it, and within airport limits, than a sea or road outside airport limits. You can't easily compensate for the latter, you clearly can for the former. Minimise risk as far as reasonably practicable.

If that plane had carried on into a sea (not off a massive cliff of course) it would likely have come to a smooth stop and just floated there.

A road, yep more damage for sure but probably wouldn't have exploded in a fireball.
Are you thinking of the Simpsons 'fear of flying' episode?
 
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