Spanish Grand Prix 2013, Barcelona - Race 5/19

Mr Men said:
Would be very hollow and farcical if Merc and RBR gain from a mid season tyre change.
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Yet Lotus and Ferrari gained from a change in tyre between seasons and so have gained, and as said by Pirelli and FIA, the tyres were never supposed to be this bad, Pirelli have made a mistake and made them too bad, and don't forget that Ferrari lost points in a race because two of the tyres have failed so massively, Force India had a tyre go but in practice and Hamilton managed to get an absurd penalty because Pirelli tyre failed. Can anyone remember actual complete tyre failures screwing teams in previous seasons, yeah there are punctures, and tyres flying off due to pitstop mistakes, but a tyre just basically destroying someones weekend because of poor QC, I can't, there must be some, but 4-5 tyres in the span of 2-3 races?

The tyres have gone beyond where they were supposed to and that is artificially helping the cars that are best on their tyres already, if they made a tyre that lasted to the point where there was ONE pitstop, they would favour Merc but would also have gone far too far the other way.

They are supposed to be aiming for between 2-3 pitstops per race, they have moved towards going for the harder tyre choices possible in the last couple races and they have still been too poor.


We currently have a situation where Pirelli could chose soft/mediums for a race and favour Lotus/Ferrari, or they could equally choose medium/hard, and favour other teams, all down to a choice made for them. Pirelli can effective choose which teams have the advantage, and have admitted getting tyre choice wrong, and that is terrible for the sport, absolutely terrible.

At worst we need the current system to change, EACH tyre available to all teams, you have to use two types of tyre in the race but its up to the teams which ones, then the strategy's will genuinely be different and each car can choose their potential best strategy, rather than certain teams being favoured at various races.

At best we need a similar system, but tyres that can go FAR FAR closer to full speed but wearing out over the same distance, and no tyres destroying themselves.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Yet Lotus and Ferrari gained from a change in tyre between seasons and so have gained.
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All teams tested the new tyres last season and had all the tech data on them to design their 2013 car around, some teams done a better job of this than others and made a legitimate gain which is completely fair and square. Changing the tyres mid-season is not fair on those teams and if it helps some teams improve then it's hollow.

Just like it was hollow when Michelin had to change late in 2003 to help Ferrari, when Renault mass damper was banned mid season to help Ferrari. If Red Bull and Merc can't get these tyres to work then tough really, Ferrari have had problems for years getting heat into the tyres they had to suck it up and get on with it.
 
Skeeter said:
You posted asking why people suddenly care about tyres, I was just pointing out that there is no 'suddenly' about it. Its been a hot topic since they arrived..
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Ah ok fair enough :)

We have always talked about them but previously for my experience of this forum people liked the 'lottery' and unpredictable results. I have never liked them. As others have said I think they have thrown in too much all at once to aid overtaking. We could easily get by on harder tyres now with DRS and Kers.

A tyre was would harden up the compounds and still give a bit more unpredictability. Especially if they gave the teams the option that they onyl had to select a supplier for 1/4 of the season per time.
 
If its apparently such an issue to change the tyres once in a season because the cars are designed around them, I doubt they would want to change them 4 times a season.

Fast wearing tyres are not a problem if the teams have loads. The problem is we have a set of regulations that were created in an era where tyres could last all race and teams made only 1 stop. The rules no longer apply to the current generation of tyres. I don't understand why after 3 years the FIA still hasn't realised this.

I seriously doubt that if anyone pushed 100% all race they would have been able to finish the Spanish GP this year with just 6 sets of tyres.
 
If I see lotus go massively backwards due to this that's it for me. I don't like drastic rule changes mid season.

I don't have a solution but couldn't they just make all the tyre compounds avaliable every race? But you must use 2?
In quali could they just not allow unlimited tyres? I really don't see the need for the tyre limit!
I don't really know how f1 is going so wrong. But I do prefer the entertainment side now than before. I also think a tyre war would be disastrous
I prefer kers to Drs and think kers should be more powerful. It's more tactical than Drs
 
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dannyjo22 said:
Not just tyres, I doubt they could do it on fuel either :D Even before tyres we heard the fuel calls all the time :D
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I can't remember which car was rumoured to not actually have a fuel tank big enough to finish the race and relied on the likes of safety cars(this was a few years ago IIRC and probably something like the HRT), but more often than not the amount of fuel taken is more strategy and trying to get that extra 1/10th than the actual inability to carry enough fuel. For a given race they work out the fuel used, then they factor in speed and likelyhood of slow laps, safety cars/rain/whatever, and try and cut every extra gram they can.

Again its worth pointing out, Pirelli have said they have gone to far, all season last season they choose the tyres for every race, which can drastically change the outcome, this system has NEVER been remotely close to fair, ever, and it can't be. However they have been aiming for 2-3 stops every race, when almost everyone did 4, they went to far, and this was with the hard tyre. Pirelli never aimed and was never supposed to make such a weak "hard" tyre that almost everyone had to do a 4 stop race.

They aren't saying "lets screw Ferrari/Lotus", they are saying, we're supposed to be going for 2-3 stops, we've made the tyres too weak(and you know just fall apart now and then), we need to get back to where they are supposed to be.

My issue is where they are supposed to be, is still awful, thats another matter, the overly weak tyres, BEYOND where they were supposed to go has already given Ferrari/Lotus an advantage they weren't supposed to have, if they get back to being able to relatively comfortably 2 stop, with the choice of 3 stop for reasons of strategy, that is where they are supposed to be and it just marginally decreases the advantage those two were never supposed to have. If they went along and made a tyre capable of one stopping even on a Merc, they'd throw the advantage the wrong way(though don't forget, Lotus and Ferrari would still likely have less slow down and better tyres throughout, they simply have better cars).

The issue is, 2-3 stops, where the choice between the two is strategic, not enforced due to utter crapness of the tyre, with a few races that some teams will be borderline one stop(if they choose to) and some races where 4 stop is a genuine alternative choice for going faster, not 4 stopping while going so painfully slow its a joke for all but 1-2 cars on the grid.
 
dannyjo22 said:
Not just tyres, I doubt they could do it on fuel either :D Even before tyres we heard the fuel calls all the time :D
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The fuel load is in the teams control. If they planned to go flat out all race they would put extra fuel in. They wouldn't however be able to magic up extra tyres.

@DM - It was Marussia that didn't build a big enough fuel tank.
 
drunkenmaster said:
My issue is where they are supposed to be, is still awful, thats another matter, the overly weak tyres, BEYOND where they were supposed to go has already given Ferrari/Lotus an advantage they weren't supposed to have, if they get back to being able to relatively comfortably 2 stop, with the choice of 3 stop for reasons of strategy, that is where they are supposed to be and it just marginally decreases the advantage those two were never supposed to have.
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LOL Kimi won in Australia with 2 stops, 2nd in Bahrain with 2 stops, 2nd in Spain with 3 stops, so they are doing exactly what you are saying the tyres should be doing. But you then turn it around and say they have gained from something that was not meant to be happening?

Lotus have not gained a unfair advantage, they designed the car around the tyres that were tested last season and in pre-season. And every other team had the same opportunity to do so, they have done a better job than most as is the case every season some teams do better than others.
 
On a quick glance, the playing field is level when it comes to tyres and everyone has had a chance to develop their car to adapt to the tyre. Lotus and Ferrari have done that, Mercedes have not.
 
I don't get the 'develop the car around the tyres' thing. They had a grand total of 90 minutes running on 1 compound in Brazil at the end of last year in which to gather data.

By the time they got to pre season testing its too late. The underlying design of the car is already there. They can change setups to try to be kind to the tyres, but having a car that is in general kind to these tyres is going to have been as much about luck as it is about being a concious design effort.

Ferrari and Lotus may well have designed their cars around how they expected the tyres to behave, but its not like they spent the whole winter running endless testing on the new tyres to get their car spot on, and are now having all that work taken away from them.

And Mercedes have said they have put a lot of effort into trying to improve their tyre wear. It just hasn't worked. Ross Brawn hasn't spent the last 2 years watching his cars nom tyres and then spent the whole winter not bothering to try and improve it.
 
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Skeeter said:
And Mercedes have said they have put a lot of effort into trying to improve their tyre wear. It just hasn't worked. Ross Brawn hasn't spent the last 2 years watching his cars nom tyres and then spent the whole winter not bothering to try and improve it.
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I personally think there must be something wrong with the designers at Mercedes, left over from Brawn/Honda. That bunch from Brackley have consistently built a car that either can't get any heat in the tyres or shreds them to pieces. In over 10 years they have probably had two years where a car coming from Brackley hasn't been one end of the spectrum or the other.
 
I think its just evolution. They haven't rebuilt the whole car for a few years, so if there is an inherrant tendancy to munch tyres, it will always be there. They might be trying to reduce it through setup changes, but without a completely new design then it wont ever go away.

Interesting how the Brawn was too light on its tyres, yet the Mercedes is now to heavy on them? Maybe they made a fundamental change to try to solve the issues with the Brawn and went to far? Maybe that trick hydraulic suspension they have at the back? We know the Brawn didn't have it, as it had a spring/damper system, which fell off and hit Massa.
 
Skeeter said:
Interesting how the Brawn was too light on its tyres, yet the Mercedes is now to heavy on them? Maybe they made a fundamental change to try to solve the issues with the Brawn and went to far? Maybe that trick hydraulic suspension they have at the back? We know the Brawn didn't have it, as it had a spring/damper system, which fell off and hit Massa.
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I like this line of thinking. Maybe the switch from Bridgestone to Pirelli (and associated tyre spec changes) caught them out.

Stick the current Mercedes on the old Bridgestone tyres and maybe it would be a winning combination. :p
 
Skeeter said:
Ferrari and Lotus may well have designed their cars around how they expected the tyres to behave, but its not like they spent the whole winter running endless testing on the new tyres to get their car spot on, and are now having all that work taken away from them.
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Yeah they spent the winter running round on last years tyres.....seriously.

Boullier believes the situation is especially unfair because all outfits had access to Pirelli's 2013 tyre data at the same time - and the move could hurt those outfits that elected to focus their designs on ensuring the tyres were looked after.

"Last year, when we were designing our 2013 car, each team received information from Pirelli and everyone did the best job they could to develop a chassis which would make best use of the tyre characteristics," he said.

"We even ran with some experimental 2013 tyres at the end of last season, to assist us in confirming our development paths.
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FIA declares Formula 1 tyre tweaks can only be for safety
By Jonathan Noble Friday, May 17th 2013, 19:46 GMT

Pirelli's planned mid-season Formula 1 tyre tweaks are set to be much smaller than originally anticipated after the FIA ruled that changes will only be allowed on safety grounds.

Sources have revealed that the governing body has told Pirelli that it is happy to accept - and is indeed keen for - alterations necessary to prevent a repeat of the rear tyre delaminations that have struck at the last few events.

But, in a blow to outfits like Red Bull hoping further tweaks would help them overcome tyre difficulties they have faced, the FIA has made it clear it will not tolerate further changes aimed at reducing the number of pitstops or decreasing degradation.

Sorting out the issue must also not lead to a change of specification back to the 2012 tyres, as some had suggested could happen.

Instead, Pirelli has been instructed to solve the matter by modifying the current specification of tyres. It is now close to finalising tweaks in this direction.

The FIA is basing its stance on Article 12.6.3 of the technical regulations, which has also been cited by teams to Pirelli amid questions about the legality of a bid to change the specification.

The rule states: "Tyre specifications will be determined by the FIA no later than 1 September of the previous season. Once determined in this way, the specification of the tyres will not be changed during the championship season without the agreement of all competing teams."

Although another clause in the regulations says that changes can be introduced if the tyres are deemed by the tyre supplier and technical delegate as 'technically unsuitable', the FIA does not believe that the current high degrading nature of the tyres that sometimes requires four stop races falls under that banner.

An FIA source told AUTOSPORT: "Discussions between the FIA and Pirelli are ongoing regarding the tyre failures and making changes to prevent them happening again. These talks do not involve the subject of degradation or the number of pitstops."

Pirelli has not yet settled on what changes it is making to the tyres, but its motorsport director Paul Hembery suggested on Friday that revisions were likely to be small.

"Let's wait and see exactly what changes we will be making, but we are doing everything we can to minimise what will be different," he told AUTOSPORT.

The stance from the FIA, allied to Hembery's suggestion, looks likely to be good news for outfits like Lotus, Ferrari and Force India that had been concerned a wholesale change of tyres could hurt the advantage they currently have.

Lotus boss Eric Boullier aired his frustration earlier this week at Pirelli planning mid-season changes, but expressed his hope that any tweaks would be minor.

"That there are changes to come can be seen as somewhat frustrating, and I hope they are not too extreme," he said. "It's clear that Pirelli have found themselves in a difficult situation and under pressure from different quarters."
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Ooopsy :D
 
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