Soldato
I don't agree because the car is good enough to compete for a title which is all that Alonso wants.
Poll: Spanish Grand Prix 2017, Catalunya - Race 5/20
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I don't agree because the car is good enough to compete for a title which is all that Alonso wants.
Soldato
Agreed, but when he left there were no signs of that. I edited my previous post to say:
It's similar to Alesi turning down the Williams team to move to Ferrari, just before Williams started dominating. It wasn't a poor decision in that case because at that point Ferrari was by far and away the stronger car of the two, but in hindsight it stopped him from almost certainly challenging for, and likely winning, the 1992 and 1993 titles (as with Alesi Frank wouldn't have rehired Mansell and possibly Prost).
Soldato
Actually agree with this now you explained it. I can't remember how McLaren did the year before Alonso moved, Wikipedia isn't for working for me for some reason.
Soldato
A touch worse than Ferrari (8th and 11th), but if you remember that year they started the overhaul which involved bringing in some high-profile staff (led by Peter Prodromou).
It would have been interesting to see how much better they would have gone these past 3 years if they'd stuck with a customer Mercedes, as Mercedes wouldn't have let them beat them, but they'd have given them a harder fight than Williams or Force India.
Soldato
8 from me, enjoyed it immensely until Lewis overtook Vettel and just ran away with it, I was hoping it would be a bit more nip and tuck between them for a few more laps after that but nevermind, still an enjoyable race and probably my favourite so far this year.
was planning on watching Monaco, but with more honda failures this weekend Im not sure now, was kinda hoping they would at least have made it a bit more reliable even if it wasnt fast
Im all for the change in the car design, but with little love towards Merc and Ferrari (Im not against Bottas, but cant stand the other three at all) this season has quickly become a borefest
Im all for the change in the car design, but with little love towards Merc and Ferrari (Im not against Bottas, but cant stand the other three at all) this season has quickly become a borefest
Same here, a couple of overtakes many maps apart and a few cars bumping into each other at the start doesn't make a greta race, compared to the rest of the season so far it was a legendary race, but in the grand scheme of things it was boring yet agaib save for the Vettel overtake and then Hamilton chasing down Vettel.
Caporegime
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DRS overtakes aren't magic. 30 years ago or even 10 years ago, the cars had massively more drag. There is this thing called science, also this other thing called gained knowledge/experience. You can get the same downforce(or much more) with much much less drag than they used to get due to better design.
The fundamental principle of overtaking throughout all motorsport was slipstreaming. IF the car in front had lets say 10 points of drag for 5 points of downforce and down a straight it drops 40kph off the max speed the engine can achieve due to drag. The car following in the slipstream drops half it's drag while having the same downforce for the corners, so down the straight behind the other car it can go 20kph faster, that is how overtakes happen. Slipstreaming always caused a relatively large differential in straight line speed.
Move forwards and you have that same car having 5 points of drag for 5 points of downforce, down the straight it's only losing 20kph of it's max speed, the car behind starts off with the same 5 points of drag but the reality is with more dirtier air and with less initial drag to lose, it's only dropping 2.5 points of drag from being behind the car ahead of it. It only gains 10kph of straight line speed and that is a lower overall percentage anyway. Where before the car in front is stuck at 280 and you get to do 300, which is a 7% increase in speed, now its 300 vs 310 which is only a 3% speed increase.
DRS only helps to re-establish a similar drag and speed difference that motorsport always previously had. Calling it fake is to ignore entirely the changing science of the sport. DRS 20 years ago would have caused a 50-60kph speed difference down straights, but today it only really establishes a similar straight line speed that they used to have. DRS only gives similar straight line speed differences to the past, unless the past was all fake overtakes because slipstreaming is bad for motorsport then DRS has been the best thing to happen to F1 in the past 20 years. As science massively improved drag vs downforce, overtaking in F1 diminished to almost nothing at all and DRS has only put overtaking on straights back to where it was for 50 years before science 'broke' slipstreaming.
Soldato
Fixed.
Caporegime
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This is not really what happened anyway, but even if it was it was obviously flawed. First up lets mention that was it 44 point lead in 2012. Had Alonso not squeezed Kimi in Japan Alonso wins the title in 2012, that car was fully capable, he had a great car. The RBR finished the season great but so what, the Brawn was dire in the second half of the season and still won the title. Alonso had a huge lead and his own personal mistake cost him a great position and a great shot at the title. People like to conveniently forget that the Ferrari was a 'meh' qualifier but had excellent race pace in several of those years.
Past that, Ferrari had made a title competitive car in recent history(2012), Ferrari were putting a lot of money and time into the engine, though they got the design wrong. Throughout 2014, before he left, Ferrari brought in huge engine people from Merc, from Lotus(Who had the guy who did the previous like 7 years of ERS R&D for Merc) and lots of other people, they were on the up and were better than Mclaren. Mclaren made a stupid deal that at the time looked stupid to bring a rushed engine from a team not involved in F1 for years and not successful in F1 for much longer than that. Nothing about it screamed good chance, everything about it screamed utter disaster incoming.
As for the seemingly fairly real story of what happened. Alonso wanted out of Ferrari believing he could get a RBR or Merc seat, he started negotiating hardball with Ferrari, the rumour being he asked for a role in team management, ie involvement in high level team decisions. The theory is he asked for this precisely because he thought they'd tell him to **** off and let him out of his contract. What he wasn't betting on was Ferrari, RBR and Merc all knowing he was available and all making a move of their own to cut him out. He had another year contract at Ferrari still but two drivers the team were going to put ahead of him. He had one big team left and went to Mclaren.
I'm no fan of Alonso but in any way does Mclaren's history of dire tactical choices, huge mistakes that kept costing Hamilton, his own personal history with Ron, Honda's recent history in multiple motorsports let alone F1 all being bad and knowing that Honda would be rushing the engine or Mclaren making two terrible cars in two years, sound like a good idea or a real chance to succeed in the short term future? Anyone who thinks Alonso actively chose Mclaren and thought they'd do well has a very low opinion of Alonso. He's not that stupid, every single sign was pointing at failure, the only reason Alonso would go there would be no other options.
What he says to excuse that decision is pretty much irrelevant. He's not going to say hey, I screwed myself out of continuing at Ferrari, Merc and RBR shut me out and despite the fact that it looks like a bad idea I guess I'll go to Mclaren for the money? Politics, he plays off going to Mclaren as a personal choice and comes up with a story about why it's a great idea.
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Soldato
What does any of that have to do with my post? 
That's all very well from a technical viewpoint, but I was talking in terms of spectacle. Even if DRS overtakes are the equivalent of slipstream overtakes, they have got to be the most pedestrian overtakes of them all. Seeing a drag race along the straight where the car behind is inevitably going to overtake does nothing for me e.g. Hamilton overtaking Vettel once they got past the back markers.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that DRS is the best thing to happen in the past 20 years. We've had 3 years of Mercedes domination and 4 years of Red Bull prior. I don't see what difference DRS has made except inconsequential noise at the back of the field?
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I can't say I remember it. Something about team orders between Hamilton and Rosberg?
Caporegime
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Honestly I can't think of a more stupid thing being said.
Firstly, again, over the history of motorsports the majority of overtakes in any race have come down straights or at the end of the longest straights. It's how motorsport works, as I said slipstreaming was a fundamental part of making it work. For however long there was motorsport slipstreaming was a huge part of allowing changes up and down the grid. This nearly disappeared in the years leading up to DRS and those years were massively criticised for the lack of overtaking, or overtaking during pitstops and strategy only. DRS changed that dramatically overnight and racing was instantly and massively improved.
Vettel's pass of Bottas was said by many to be amazing and maybe the highlight of the race, without DRS it wouldn't have happened. Domination makes no difference, 4 years of Red Bulls winning the title, that was the end result, the races were individual races with passing or no passing, there were numerous brilliant races and all of the best races had DRS to help passing happen, without it those races wouldn't have been as good as cars wouldn't get as close, they would get stuck for longer behind backmarkers, it would take 20 laps to pass a car instead of 5 and meant we had numerous races where someone could come from the back and end up near the front, without DRS that wouldn't have happened.
Many of the best overtakes of the past what 8 years is it now, have been helped by DRS. Even if the pass was made in a sequence of corners you would find that a lap or two before that DRS enabled that car to get within distance to make that move later in the lap.
Caporegime
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There were exactly no team orders in Bahrain, it was probably the race of the year with Rosberg having the softer tire and starting the last stint right behind Hamilton due to a safety car. This meant we got what 15 or 20 laps of a straight fight to the end, with Rosberg passing Hamilton and Hamilton taking the position back. This was after a lot of toe to toe in the first stint as well. The middle stint Rosberg did his harder tire stint while Ham was on the softs. He pulled out a 8-10 second gap iirc but the safety car destroyed the gap and left him with a huge tire disadvantage. Again without DRS Rosberg wouldn't have gotten as close as often, a lot of his moves were dives into the first corner, as said, DRS assisted, which led to several corners of them switching positions, cutting back and trying to get the best line as they drag race side by side to the following corner.
It was a brilliant race, DRS was crucial... just because Merc 'dominated' the period of time doesn't mean the race was bad. Also inconsequential things 'at the back', DRS has meant numerous brilliant battles up and down the grid. Consequential, because Sauber got a single points finish... we lost Manor as a team due to lack of money, if you think people down the back are inconsequential and that only overtakes at the front and only ones that give you a different champion every year are worth noting then you aren't watching the right sport.
YOu can have a different champion every year and a different constructors winner, yet 20 awful races, or you can have Merc every year for 5 years and 5 years of brilliant races... or usually in the middle, a good car generally stays around for a while and generally wins multiple titles, that has often been the way of F1, but you then get good and bad years of racing. Then even within a bad year you get some great races and in a good year there are some stinkers.
Caporegime
If Vettel can come close it's plausible Alonso could win in the same car. Alonso is a notably better driver than Vettel.
Soldato
Of course, and there are many other variables that could have happened in the mean time too if Alonso had decided to stay, but when he made the decision he was jumping from a poorly performing team who hadn't won a drivers title for 8 years to a team that had started a massive push for the front. It's not like he left a team that was expected to challenge for the title imminently.
Caporegime
I agree. Alonso's decision was bad in hindsight, but only in hindsight.
I think you're putting DRS on a pedestal. There were many great races before it was introduced, even when the Trulli Train was at its peak. It's funny you mention Vettel's pass of Bottas, as he's one of the drivers on record as saying DRS makes overtaking too easy.
The overtake assists have only mitigated other changes in F1 like the lack of mistakes and cars being too reliable. That happened when fuel stops were lost, slicks were added and the max engine rpm was reduced. It's rare to see the top drivers bin their cars these days for example. What we have now is more artificial than before, to appease viewers. It's the equivalent of a football match with ten goals scored.
Soldato
Complaining about cars being too reliable and going back to slicks?