Speaker upgrade :)

I've just got some MA bx2 to go with my bxfx rears and I'll be honest and say my mission 780se from 20 years ago sound better so they might be worth a look. Also with the tweeter being below the mid/bass you wouldn't need as much downward angle and they're front ported so are worth a look.

Also have a REL strata sub which is connected at both high and line level
 
"hey (and BK) specifically fit dual-mode sub plates that work on coax for AV and High Level for music.

Again there is no need at all to do that. If you have a AVR simply use RCA-RCA. There is no need to send RCA-RCA plus speaker level.

Highly likely the Rel people are old fuddy-duddies who think speaker level is better.

It's how REL suggest it's wired

lol.

My sub has both high and low level, I only use line level (for AV) from the av pre, and line level for the hifi as it goes through outlaw ICBM-1

Using both high and low level serves no purpose and probably causes more problems then it solves, as you are sending LFE plus L/R bass, so you are pretty much buggering it up. That's like LFE + main in effect. Which is bad.
 
Does the 0.1 channel work in pure direct mode for stereo?

Depends on your setup. If you have a AVR, and use bass management then the sub receives the LFE signal plus the <hz bass from the 7.0 channels, which is set below the xover point. Crossover on sub disabled. That's bass management.

If you have a stereo system, then use either left/right pre-out from the stereo amp, or speaker level L/R from the stereo amp. Use subs own crossover.

In pure direct, then the L/R are set to full range, the bass management is disabled, no signal from LFE is sent. So sub receives no signal. That's pure direct working fine.

If you use pure direct, and use high level the sub receives full range, you need to use the subs own crossover. Basically same as two channel hifi with sub. Which is fine. However the problem is when using in AV mode, the sub will be receving signal from RCA (LFE + other channel bass) and you want the subs own crossover disabled. Ok. However the sub will be receving L/R signal from the speaker level, you've bypassed the subs own crossover (because unlikely you will adjust dial every time) and the sub will be outputting LFE + 7.0 bass managed bass + L/R full range (and/or depending on sub works with crossover, ie if crossover is disabled in certain input priority) Left and right (trying to play) full range. So it'll be multiple combined bass, it'll be a freaking mess lol.

Unless of course you have a seperate AVR + stereo amp. That'll work fine in stereo mode (AVR off) but in av mode both will be on, and both be sending signal to the sub (high and low level)

Simply use the single RCA-RCA cable if you have a AVR. Use bass management- or not, and when not your sub will be quiet.

Rel are stuck from 25 years ago lol, they probably think bass management is bad, so you must use high level- but they must also please the av guys so "hey use both at the same time" derp. without thinking what happens.
 
Again there is no need at all to do that. If you have a AVR simply use RCA-RCA. There is no need to send RCA-RCA plus speaker level.

Highly likely the Rel people are old fuddy-duddies who think speaker level is better.



lol.

My sub has both high and low level, I only use line level (for AV) from the av pre, and line level for the hifi as it goes through outlaw ICBM-1

Using both high and low level serves no purpose and probably causes more problems then it solves, as you are sending LFE plus L/R bass, so you are pretty much buggering it up. That's like LFE + main in effect. Which is bad.

Ah, I see what the problem is. You don't understand how REL, MJ, BK etc are using this.
 
Depends on your setup. If you have a AVR, and use bass management then the sub receives the LFE signal plus the <hz bass from the 7.0 channels, which is set below the xover point. Crossover on sub disabled. That's bass management.

If you have a stereo system, then use either left/right pre-out from the stereo amp, or speaker level L/R from the stereo amp. Use subs own crossover.

In pure direct, then the L/R are set to full range, the bass management is disabled, no signal from LFE is sent. So sub receives no signal. That's pure direct working fine.

If you use pure direct, and use high level the sub receives full range, you need to use the subs own crossover. Basically same as two channel hifi with sub. Which is fine. However the problem is when using in AV mode, the sub will be receving signal from RCA (LFE + other channel bass) and you want the subs own crossover disabled. Ok. However the sub will be receving L/R signal from the speaker level, you've bypassed the subs own crossover (because unlikely you will adjust dial every time) and the sub will be outputting LFE + 7.0 bass managed bass + L/R full range (and/or depending on sub works with crossover, ie if crossover is disabled in certain input priority) Left and right (trying to play) full range. So it'll be multiple combined bass, it'll be a freaking mess lol.

Unless of course you have a seperate AVR + stereo amp. That'll work fine in stereo mode (AVR off) but in av mode both will be on, and both be sending signal to the sub (high and low level)

Simply use the single RCA-RCA cable if you have a AVR. Use bass management- or not, and when not your sub will be quiet.

Rel are stuck from 25 years ago lol, they probably think bass management is bad, so you must use high level- but they must also please the av guys so "hey use both at the same time" derp. without thinking what happens.
...and that confirms it... lol


For those subs that have Audiophile Augmentation (MJ Acoustics' phrase for it), the crossovers are designed to work in tandem in AV mode (LFE + Front channel High Level). So rather than being "stuck in the past" as you put it, they're actually ahead of the curve.

You see, the intention is to tap in to the full range signal for the front L&R speakers at source i.e. the speaker outputs on the amp. This way they supplement the bass of the main stereo pair without incurring any delay or signal shaping that might otherwise affect the subwoofer pre-out signal. SO, as you correctly guessed, the sub gets a signal even if the amp is in Pure Stereo mode.

The bit you're missing is that the AV Receiver set-up has front L&R set to large because the sub is filling in the bottom end.

In AV mode the receiver's bass management directs the LFE signal for any other speakers except front L&R via the sub-woofer pre-out. This is added to the LFE (0.1) channel by the receiver's bass management as normal.

During AV mode then the REL/MJ/BK etc subwoofer accepts two signals then; LFE + Bass managed audio for Centre and the surrounds (if they're not full range) via it's Low Level phono input and mixes that with the High Level input for the front stereo pair.

This isn't a case of the sub have an "either or" connection method, it's an "and" and it makes a bit of difference.
 
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Which is? Rel trotted out same nonsense forgetting about mixed in bass. Only way it could work is high level crossover and low level bypassed, ideally with serial communication between avr so sub acts certain way depending on what mode and amp(s) are on.

In av mode high level input is disabled.
In stereo mode low level is disabled.

I had rel sub and did not follow what rel cane out in their 30 year old idea lol


Ah, I see what the problem is. You don't understand how REL, MJ, BK etc are using this.
 
...and that confirms it... lol


For those subs that have Audiophile Augmentation (MJ Acoustics' phrase for it), the crossovers are designed to work in tandem in AV mode (LFE + Front channel High Level). So rather than being "stuck in the past" as you put it, they're actually ahead of the curve.

You see, the intention is to tap in to the full range signal for the front L&R speakers at source i.e. the speaker outputs on the amp. This way they supplement the bass of the main stereo pair without incurring any delay or signal shaping that might otherwise affect the subwoofer pre-out signal. SO, as you correctly guessed, the sub gets a signal even if the amp is in Pure Stereo mode.

The bit you're missing is that the AV Receiver set-up has front L&R set to large because the sub is filling in the bottom end.

In AV mode the receiver's bass management directs the LFE signal for any other speakers except front L&R via the sub-woofer pre-out. This is added to the LFE (0.1) channel by the receiver's bass management as normal.

During AV mode then the REL/MJ/BK etc subwoofer accepts two signals then; LFE + Bass managed audio for Centre and the surrounds (if they're not full range) via it's Low Level phono input and mixes that with the High Level input for the front stereo pair.

This isn't a case of the sub have an "either or" connection method, it's an "and" and it makes a bit of difference.

If you are suggesting to set left and right to large that is simply wrong.

Also avrs do time alignment on sub channel so in fact that is better than sub and speaker playing at same time because one could be closer.
 
Which is? Rel trotted out same nonsense forgetting about mixed in bass. Only way it could work is high level crossover and low level bypassed, ideally with serial communication between avr so sub acts certain way depending on what mode and amp(s) are on.

In av mode high level input is disabled.
In stereo mode low level is disabled.

I had rel sub and did not follow what rel cane out in their 30 year old idea lol
I think you posted this before I'd finished editing post #48 to add the detail of how this actually works. Have a read, it should make sense to you. You'll see that there's no requirement to switch crossover modes at all. The High Level crossover is permanently active. The Low Level input is either receiving a signal from the AV Receiver (film mode, multichannel stereo mode etc) or it's not, which would be in Pure Direct mode.
 
If you are suggesting to set left and right to large that is simply wrong.

Also avrs do time alignment on sub channel so in fact that is better than sub and speaker playing at same time because one could be closer.

Why is that wrong? The front L&R speakers + High Level input for the sub is the same as running a pair of full range front speakers. It's exactly as you would do with a stereo amp.

You're still stuck with the idea that it's one or the other crossover in the sub. It's not. It's both; or both in AV mode specifically.
 
You don't set full range in avr if your speakers are not full range. Even.my celestion A3 are not full range speakers.

Use bass managment properly.

Read up on setting up avr bass managment.

If rel state set all or left and right to large then they are wrong.

Sorry but you are Wrong in this.
 
If you are suggesting to set left and right to large that is simply wrong.

Also avrs do time alignment on sub channel so in fact that is better than sub and speaker playing at same time because one could be closer.

The sub's High Level crossover phase control is time alignment. The set-up procedure is to dial in the sub to the front L&R first. We set up the crossover frequency, the phase control and the volume on the High Level crossover to blend the sub and the fronts.

The equivalent of the Phase control to adjust timing in an AVR's set-up menu is the distance control. Some AVRs have it down to the centimentre increments. Others, more basic AVRs could be working in 10cm or even 30cm steps. The subwoofer's phase control as usef for the High Level input doesn't have that limitation.

Remember too, this Audiophile Augmentation is even available on BK's entry-level sub, the Gemini II at £225. That's great value.
 
You don't set full range in avr if your speakers are not full range. Even.my celestion A3 are not full range speakers.

Use bass managment properly.

Read up on setting up avr bass managment.

If rel state set all or left and right to large then they are wrong.

Sorry but you are Wrong in this.

Your head is still stuck in the old fashioned way of doing things.

Would it make more sense to you if the front L&R channel speaker wires went to the sub first, then from the sub to the L&R speakers?
 
the best high level input for a sub is one that's pure, no eq. This generally means bigger front speakers with a flatter bottom end are a requirement - it's much more difficult to match a sub and satellites using a high level signal and any eq'ing for the front speakers naturally ends up being eq'd on the sub as well and it gets messy. This is where it makes little sense to me; the idea of bigger speakers being easier to match with a sub using high level inputs is directly at odds with why we would use a sub for music in the first place - to relieve the main speakers of that sub bass and infrasonic load.

lucid said:
The front L&R speakers + High Level input for the sub is the same as running a pair of full range front speakers

Except you loose the ability to individually eq the front speakers properly.

lucid said:
The sub's High Level crossover phase control is time alignment.

I dont think there's a sub out there without some kind of digital alignment that has a perfectly flat phase response. You know this - the phase knob changes the alignment of the sub, yes, but it only shifts the entire spectrum by x degrees and the problem is you might get that sub aligned at 60hz but it might still be 180 degrees out of phase at 30hz and that's a big problem if you're running full range fronts with their own phase responses.
 
You don't know what you are talking about.

Room eq setup in avr basically lfe as be set with much then bass to sub via Hugh level which is set with mic on Main And sub lol

Speakers crossover no way set standmihnt to large in movies.

Issue with power when set to large

Time alignment takes into consideration subs own delay in processing and distance. But by using left and right plus lfe its buggered.

Don't put set up my home theater lo

Stupid phone auto correct.

Ignore rel, follow what avr manual says.
 
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