Speedfit questions......

newbiejim

newbiejim

newbiejim

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South Scotland
RIght...... just had new Vaillant Ecotec Plus 831 and all new radiators installed.............but guy who installed said existing 8mm microbore would be 'fine' (despite my concerns), anyways......now I find less than stellar performance, even boiler going into anti cycle mode and rads take a while to heat and possibly colder at bottom etc......tinterweb tells me 8mm microbore esp with this boiler can cause issues.....this in mind I am considering embarking on replacing the 8mm manifold and pipes to and from rads........


My plan is cut the main 22mm copper run and use 15mm speedfit to rads.

  • Is this ok/feasible to do?
  • What would be the best method? (speedfit manifold?)
  • Do I need collets(?) to connect 15mm speedfit to my existing Danfoss TRVs and lockshields at other side.
  • What are the caveats?
 
8mm microbore can cause a lot of issues.

Issues, only ones is the costs of speedfit fittings, probably cheaper using 15mm copper.

Speedfit Reducing Tee 22x22x15mm, about £3:59p each at Screwfix ref:12598,so costs will soon mount up.
Compared to copper, copper end feed Reducing Tee 22 x 22 x 15mm are £10:98p per pack of 10 & E/F Elbow 15mm £5:56p for a 25 pack.

You will need to use brass olives on the Speedfit pipe to the TVR's & lockshields, don't like using copper olives, as I couldn't get good seal with them when using speedfit pipe.

See this guide.

http://www.speedfit.co.uk/Home/Prod...mm,-15mm,-22mm---28mm-Sizes/REDUCING-TEE.aspx
 
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Cheers m8, so simply tee off the main 22mm copper to each rad?, not use manifold?, brass olives readily available?, I forgot to say microbore joins end of the 22m run via a manifold.
 
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Yes, bag of 100, £8:883p,15mm compression olives ref 78438 Toolstation.
Screwfix price £10.00p per bag of 100.

If you have two radiators close together, could use a manifold, they are expensive at nearly £12 each, plus you will need to blank off unused outlets,also you need to factor in cost of 90 degree Speedfit bends, as you not be able to get a decent curve with speedfit pipe alone.

That is why I suggest using copper if your confident with a blow torch, as it might work out cheaper.
 
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Nightglow said:
Yes, bag of 100, £8:883p,15mm compression olives ref 78438 Toolstation.
Screwfix price £10.00p per bag of 100.

If you have two radiators close together, could use a manifold, they are expensive at nearly £12 each, plus you will need to blank off unused outlets,also you need to factor in cost of 90 degree Speedfit bends, as you not be able to get a decent curve with speedfit pipe alone.

That is why I suggest using copper if your confident with a blow torch, as it might work out cheaper.
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divuk83 said:
Just use copper solder ring fittings, you don't even have to be particularly confident with a blow torch to use them.

Dave
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Thanks guys, you're correct I'm considering speed fit primarily to avoid learning to use copper on the job so to speak, I don't have a blowtorch or pipe bend tool either....BUT it does appeal to me as it *seems* potentially more robust.
 
Nightglow said:
See this thread, with similar problem.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=24277068#post24277068

:o:o

I just noticed you were the original OP of that thread.:o

You could always advertise the job with http://www.ratedpeople.com or http://www.mybuilder.com/ , sure there was another one,been mention on here before, but the name eludes me.
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lol yeah, cheers for the help though, appreciated, came home tonight and its playing up, boiler fires up but burner really low for over a minute before trying to ramp up........then it just stops............having read about issues with the 831 one guy said he had seen similar issues with 831s and drained n refilled system and it cleared.......so I've did that tonight and had it running for 2 hours now ok, wtf?, maybe reset sensors or something, not much detailed info on how the software operates these boilers, I do believe though circulation issues may well be implicated so I still will need to replace this 8mm microbore. Just what you want coming in from work........
 
Issues apparent again, that in mind............. there seems to be two types of speedfit pipe?, both barrier, PEX or polybutylene?, which is best/caveats?
 
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PEX barrier pipe has blue coloured oxygen barrier liner, prevents corrosion in central heating systems, you must use the inserts with it.

15mm is available 3m length White 15BPEX-20X3L & 6m length White 15BPEX-20X6L.

Whereas Polybutylene pipe is only available in coils from 25mtrs up to 300 mtrs

You will probably find he rigid lengths of PEX pipe, a lot easier to work with, but Polybutylene as advantages,a 25mtr coil Polybutylene is around £31.22 inc VAT, it lays flat, stays flat & suitable for central heating systems, again you need to use inserts if using copper compression fittings & plastic fittings you will need to use bending spring to make bends & curve, otherwise it with crease.

Might find cheaper, shopping around.

http://www.plumbnation.co.uk/site/speedfit-layflat-polybutylene-barrier-pipe/

http://www.speedfit.co.uk/Home/Prod.../Pipe/POLYBUTYLENE-BARRIER-PIPE-IN-COILS.aspx
 
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many thanks again m8, not looking forward to cutting my teeth on a live system so to speak lol, still its the summer so worst case i get a pro in after i mess up.
 
newbiejim said:
Lifted boards and had a look today to confirm config. As expected.... going to cost circa £150 in speedfit fittings/pipe to replace.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
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Oh! I must stop polishing my crystal ball.:eek:

I reckon nearer to £200 or so, told you it be cheaper in copper.:D

Might pay advertise the job with my earlier links & see what quotes you get back.
If I was closer I would do it for you.:(
 
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Nightglow said:
Oh! I must stop polishing my crystal ball.:eek:

I reckon nearer to £200 or so, told you it be cheaper in copper.:D

Might pay advertise the job with my earlier links & see what quotes you get back.
If I was closer I would do it for you.:(
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If you were closer I would be doing the upstairs microbore too then lol, plan is to replace this lot and see how the boiler responds, it needs done anyway as it takes the radiators an age to heat up prob due to the restricted flow capacity of the microbore. Complete PITA and tbh its a tad rich that they don't mention this caveat in their (Vaillant) literature. Ive read some stuff on tinterweb saying 'range rating' the boiler may help, essentially you configure it via the installer menu to run at a defined output, say 14kw, instead of it trying to determine the optimum rate and getting itself into a tizzy n repeatedly going into anti cycle mode then firing burner at a very low rate that doesn't even get flow temp up to the desired temp, this I think tho would impact the efficiency as it cant modulate to exact burn rate to achieve desired temps.
 
Just an update on this, re piped four rads and incredibly it all works lol, had one minor leak but fixed that np, radiators now heat much faster, will have to monitor to see if boiler anti cycling issue resolved.
 
newbiejim said:
Just an update on this, re piped four rads and incredibly it all works lol, had one minor leak but fixed that np, radiators now heat much faster, will have to monitor to see if boiler anti cycling issue resolved.
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Only one leak...:eek:

Thanks for the update, great result, it's surprising at the difference in heat up times, between 8mm & 15mm pipe.
 
Nightglow said:
Only one leak...:eek:

Thanks for the update, great result, it's surprising at the difference in heat up times, between 8mm & 15mm pipe.
Click to expand...

lol yeah and the leak was completely my fault, trying to 'bend' the pipe too much up to the radiator and avoid using an elbow..... I knew it was dodgy but sort of tried it just to see/learn if it would seal.........it didn't but we were watching the fittings as it filled and quickly sorted it, so I learned that the pipe is best going in to the fitting totally straight and not having a bend putting pressure on it. It took me a couple of days with help, toughest part is lifting floorboards etc, I`m gettin old and I`m now totally pooped :eek: I have to say though I would be confident of doing it again, scary part was cutting the main runs of 22mm...........no goin back lol
 
Another update to this, issues I was having with boiler apparently going in to anti cycling mode now looks as if it is at least partly due to the recent British Gas remote central heating I had installed, this uses a wireless thermostat to a receiver at the boiler, the signal has to go through three significant brick walls (I did suggest to installer that this may be an issue but he said it would be fine). Testing it last night it seemed like the signal was flaky, on a cursory tinterweb trawl it seems these issues are not uncommon....... for £199 British Gas will be coming back out :-). Turns out the boiler (Ive observed this) will go into antic cycle mode when it gets a stop heat signal from thermostat so when the signal gets flaky from the thermostat it does this in normal operation..........perhaps leading me to believe that boiler doing this was a result of other issues (circulation etc), HOWEVER it def did this when I had the mechanical timer only on boiler so it is still a muddled picture, I am however hugely impressed that after re piping the microbore downstairs the radiators heat up MUCH faster and am hopeful once this wireless issue is sorted that I will have arrived at a reliable upgrade for winter.
 
A few more details:eek:;)

Have same boiler, I didn't like the analogue timer on that boiler, so I had it changed for the digital one.

I know a few people who have had problem with that British Gas kit losing signal, I certainly wouldn't waste money buying one.
 
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