If you think 8-10 under 2's per carer is something to aspire too you clearly dont have kids.
Spring Budget 2023
- Thread starter doodah
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If you think 8-10 under 2's per carer is something to aspire too you clearly dont have kids.
Engineering has always been rubbish pay in the UK, you can thank the BBC for that for calling a lacky who swapped a valve out a engineer. In the rest of the world its generally a protected profession much like a lawyer/doctor etc even teachers are treated better in the UK and they are just useless history students who had no idea what they wanted to and end up being teachers 
Yeah that's about one area that would be tricky to automate, or at least partially automate. I was referring to a lot of the obvious roles that are fundamental to society, but should in theory be easily replaced. i.e stock replenishment and cleaning. Once a store closes it's doors to customers then a series of robots come out to clean the floor and restock shelves. You'd only need a worker or 2 there potentially for security and make sure nothing goes wrong.
Despite not having been a train driver, many moons ago i worked on the tracks, it involves a lot more than turn up - drive train - go home. For instance if your train breaks down knowing what side of the cab is safe to get out of, how long it would take to stop, safe speed limits, meaning of signage, etc, etc.
Don't get me wrong as much like driving a car it's something most people could learn, however much like you wouldn't put someone with zero experience behind the wheel of a car on a motorway it's not as simple as turn up - drive train - go home. It certainly can be but if and when something out of the ordinary happened you need to be able to handle that all the while being responsible for possibly hundreds of people.
Man of Honour
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@danlightbulb I sort of get what you're saying (I think) I, like you, am a double chartered professional engineer. I "fell" into engineering as I liked technology but honestly the degree was far too intense/geeky for me, albeit interesting. However, I didn't do it to walk into 100k+ pa jobs, in fact I started working in my mid-teens as an apprentice. I have done some proper ****** jobs in my life, and now definitely lucky to be in a more "upper tier" role.
I think what you're feeling is probably an unintended feeling of entitlement - and I don't mean that in an aggressive or negative way, it's an easy way to feel after the efforts you have put in to get your engineering degree. Heck, it took me nearly 10 years to become professionally certified. HOWEVER, looking within the engineering roles, you will still need your labourers, your hourly paid staff, your truck drivers, logistics people, welders, BIM/CAD designers, apprentices, security guards, cleaners, admins and other "non technical" staff. HOWEVER, it is not low skill necessarily, sure it could be argued that tidying a building site, or a project site is menial but with good training, culture and understanding those roles are actually critical for a high functioning project. Calling non professionals low skilled workers is quite insulting. Even apprentices are highly trained and create a huge amount of value the better you train them and engage with them. These specialist roles, whilst hourly paid can be lucrative but they are also often woefully under-paid.
For me pay should not be the only differentiator between varying levels of roles. Experience, capability and demonstrable ability is far more important, cultural fit, behaviours and so on are really important to.
Should everyone earn the same? No. You couldn't pay me enough to be PM for example, or be a front-line serving armed forces personnel... even on my salary, would I want to clean public toilets 5 days a week for 12hr days? No definitely not. So it's not just about pay, it's about attitude, but there will always be those that need to do the leading, some to do the "spit and sawdust" sort of work - until automation, robotics or new innovations solve the menial tasks, there will always be those people. I always befriended the cleaners, and post room staff (when post was a thing), receptionists etc.. because they are actually such an important part of a business - a lot of them are actually really happy in those roles because it lives to their skills and interests, and it's a low stress life. Dare I say it the more you get paid the more stress you put yourself under and the more expectations are raised.
Anyway this is possibly a little off topic - but equitable pay does not have to mean equal pay - it just means it has to be fair. Having a professional qualification doesn't automatically mean you deserve more.
I think what you're feeling is probably an unintended feeling of entitlement - and I don't mean that in an aggressive or negative way, it's an easy way to feel after the efforts you have put in to get your engineering degree. Heck, it took me nearly 10 years to become professionally certified. HOWEVER, looking within the engineering roles, you will still need your labourers, your hourly paid staff, your truck drivers, logistics people, welders, BIM/CAD designers, apprentices, security guards, cleaners, admins and other "non technical" staff. HOWEVER, it is not low skill necessarily, sure it could be argued that tidying a building site, or a project site is menial but with good training, culture and understanding those roles are actually critical for a high functioning project. Calling non professionals low skilled workers is quite insulting. Even apprentices are highly trained and create a huge amount of value the better you train them and engage with them. These specialist roles, whilst hourly paid can be lucrative but they are also often woefully under-paid.
For me pay should not be the only differentiator between varying levels of roles. Experience, capability and demonstrable ability is far more important, cultural fit, behaviours and so on are really important to.
Should everyone earn the same? No. You couldn't pay me enough to be PM for example, or be a front-line serving armed forces personnel... even on my salary, would I want to clean public toilets 5 days a week for 12hr days? No definitely not. So it's not just about pay, it's about attitude, but there will always be those that need to do the leading, some to do the "spit and sawdust" sort of work - until automation, robotics or new innovations solve the menial tasks, there will always be those people. I always befriended the cleaners, and post room staff (when post was a thing), receptionists etc.. because they are actually such an important part of a business - a lot of them are actually really happy in those roles because it lives to their skills and interests, and it's a low stress life. Dare I say it the more you get paid the more stress you put yourself under and the more expectations are raised.
Anyway this is possibly a little off topic - but equitable pay does not have to mean equal pay - it just means it has to be fair. Having a professional qualification doesn't automatically mean you deserve more.
Soldato
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Honestly wouldn't bother me. If someone chooses to do that, it's on them not me. Maybe would be shocked for a day or two but after that it would be forgotten.
Soldato
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A supermarket worker is far harder to replace than any possible job that can be done on a computer or any possible management type role.
Said every person before they suffer a traumatic event and then have to deal with PTSD for the rest of their life.
Soldato
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Yeah I'm not saying it's an untrained profession, but it is similar to driving a car as you say, so learning it is doable by most people from a technical perspective. Attitude would be important too, as we've all seen bad drivers and you wouldn't want those non-safety-conscious people driving trains. However anyone with a good attitude to work and who thinks clearly should be able to do the job.
I agree with what you're saying but it's your first para that strikes me, because I got into engineering for the same reason - that I wanted to add value and deliver something worthwhile. However at 43 I am disillusioned with it because that's not what I have achieved. Is that on me, or on a false expectation of what the career entails? And I could have been a train driver, hgv driver, for the same money.
And I completely agree that many 'unskilled' professions (I still don't know the correct term to use so I don't say 'unskilled' in a derogatory way) are the bedrock of society. But the fact is that if bedrock professions demand more money that will have massive impacts on our whole economy. Like right now getting building work done is very expensive, that kind of roadblock has knock on effects on productivity and growth because the historically 'easy' stuff now can't be done to facilitate the more technical stuff that relies on it.
A lot of people like to say this with regards to either seeing or they themselves taking a life whether intentional or not, but it simply is not true. You will be affected by that permanently. The only people who won't be are actual psychopath (I think that is the right one), of which to be fair many do seem to exist in normal day to day life (see the partially crippled woman who pushed a cyclist infront of a car and killed them then proceeded to go shopping without looking back, or the dude who chased a motorcyclidst down the motorway ran them over and killed them, then got their car fixed like nothing happened)
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Soldato
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I struggle to believe this.
I'm not entirely sure this is true either. Current supermarkets would have to adapt a lot, but Amazon have already started rolling out shops without tils (you get billed automatically when you walk out of the door). If you think of a Costco type warehouse where everything is on pallets, it's not a big stretch to have robot automatically swapping out pallets / shelving when its empty or needs replenishing (think hidden aisles behind the shelves to slide stock in / out). You'd still need a level of staffing to keep it running but no where near the level of staff you need now.
I'm pretty certain there was a thread about this on the forums, but Japan does have some areas of shelf stacking partially automated. A redesign of stores and how they operate would be required but it is possible to automate quite a lot of work at shops. I don't know about anyone else, but a lot of stores I see now mostly have self service check outs.
www.conveniencestore.co.uk
Robot shelf stackers introduced to Japanese convenience chain
The robots are designed to free up time for retailers to "focus on further improvements for both employees and customers"
www.conveniencestore.co.uk
You say that but it's not a job I'd want or even could do and i wouldn't consider myself someone not capable of learning, the burden of responsibility is what would, indeed has in the past, prevent me from doing such a job.
It's one thing to be responsible for another persons life, even being responsible for hundreds of lives if what you do or don't do is checked by other people before the repercussions of your choices become evident. It's quiet another to responsible for hundreds of lives in real-time with few checks or balances in place to prevent you from making a mistake, simply not seeing something, or just having an off moment.
I would ask you to define "repetitive"
Fruit picking is repetitive but extremely hard to automate because every single plant is different, and it requires constant use of judgement by a human to do it, shelf stacking is repetitive but unfortunately for robots many of the items being stacked are not easy to handle and doing it properly also requires doing things like checking the dates on items that are still on the shelf and dealing with things the inconsiderate humans have left in the wrong place.
Even cleaning is in theory easy to automate, but you can't do it blindly as you need to be able to use your judgement about how to deal with different levels and types of dirt (the roomba with the dog poop is a great, if extreme example).
The are plenty of videos on Youtube showing various lines in the UK (even main lines) from a drivers perspective which shows how "automated" driving works. I.e various parts are equipped for the train to effectively run itself but the driver is still there required to check at stations, emergencies (e.g toilet alarm), they have to press to authorise at various points so the system knows they are paying attention and as an over-ride, there in case the train breaks down etc.
No country has no driver in mainline or fast speed lines, and that won't happen any time soon. More automation (like above) maybe can happen but it'll need big investment in the infrastructure... not sure where that investment will come from right now. I think it's a big myth that replacing drivers / "make everything automated" will save any money in the mid future. Maybe make things a bit safer but it's not like the UK has safety issues on train lines (nor does most of Europe). I'd personal like more staff on trains, not less. I find it strange (for me at least) being on a train in the evening in London with no staff on the train at all, when coming from a country where every train has as at least 1 ticket inspector and you regularly (almost daily) see transport Police wondering through.
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Mainly because of the variety of tasks involved in working in one, even just "shelf stacking" requires stuff that is hard for a robot to do, even if you build the store around the automation you still have issues with certain types of packaging, and the human element of the actual customers.
Okado has spent something like 15-20 years trying to automate warehouses for groceries, and even with all that investment and building entirely around the needs of the automation they still require humans to handle some items, and that's in a situation where there are no random people picking up say a tin of beans from isle 3 and leaving them in with the bread on isle 5, or leaving a packet of ham from the fridges in isle 9 on the eggs in isle 12.
IIRC the Japanese "automated" stores use robots to "stack" some shelves from behind (like the way some stores have the fridges and freezes backing directly onto the stores chillers so they can be refilled from behind by warehouse staff), which works well for solid packages such as tins, cans, boxes and even bottles, but no so well for things like packets of crisps, small sweets (say mars bars or polo type packs), and only works properly along the "edge" shelves that back onto the walls of the store.
Actually doing it on the shop floor requires more mobile robots that also then have to either be designed to work with untrained humans near them at random times, or only when the store is closed to customers, and the moment you move away from the "fill from behind" type system you run into issues with people putting stuff back in the wrong place, and having to check the dates and lifting stuff out of the way and then back to ensure that say the loafs of bread with the shortest date are not pushed to the back when you load up the fresh delivery.
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The fact you fail to realise that driving a train is mentally draining over a full shift is on you.
Ultimately it's like me saying your job is "turn up, operate computer, go home"
What type of engineering do you actually do and what professional qualifications do you have?
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Train driving is nothing compared to lorry driving. Yet the pay is 15-20k more and you don't work 60 hours a week. Doing the same route day in day out is a piece of pie. Give them the keys to a HGV and ask them to do multidrop deliveries in Wembley Park Royal and watch him give up after 5 minutes. The difference is train drivers have fought for their wages which is good on them.