Ding ding ding, what is it that Mrs garrison says next?
Steam prices! Grey key sites! and the I love/hate developers thread - Enter if you dare!
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Ding ding ding, what is it that Mrs garrison says next?
Both issues affect the bottom line of the business in the same way (loss of revenue), how about explaining why you don't agree instead of making irrelevant posts?
Zethor, people like you are not worth reasoning with tbh, you have your opinion, which regardless of what anyone else says here, will never change.
Piracy is piracy, some people are cheap, some want to test before buying.
Buying a game, regardless of region, will contribute towards overall sales figures and various bonus Incentive's and further on down the line, the viability of a sequal.
Once it's digital, the associated costs for distribution are fairly insignificant so a sale at either £10 or £50 is still money for work done/finished.
From my own perspective, I will pay as little as possible to certain companies (ea) others I'm happy to buy direct.
What works for me won't necessarily work for others.
Piracy is piracy, some people are cheap, some want to test before buying.
Buying a game, regardless of region, will contribute towards overall sales figures and various bonus Incentive's and further on down the line, the viability of a sequal.
Once it's digital, the associated costs for distribution are fairly insignificant so a sale at either £10 or £50 is still money for work done/finished.
From my own perspective, I will pay as little as possible to certain companies (ea) others I'm happy to buy direct.
What works for me won't necessarily work for others.
So is it OK to buy a physical copy from Amazon at £37 compared to a digital copy from an official retailer such as Origin yet pay £13 less? In what way is that different to buying from a key site? As has been said, if the publishers wanted to they could easily stop it. But they don't so it seems to me they're happy/accepting of the situation and key sites in general.
They are nothing alike. Legit keys from a legit key site still have to be bought so the developer/distributer/publisher/whatever are still getting money, and i'm not talking about buying a RUS key and activating via VPN. If they didn't want keys to be sold in this way then they could probably easily stop the supply or at least reduce it.
Associate
why shouldn't i buy a key from another country to save me money when software houses move to another country to save them money ?
And yet most of us condemn piracy (at least when we get older
)Although it is probably that not every pirated copy is a lost sale, it is also almost certainly true that the net effect of piracy is loss of revenue.
The effect of grey market keys could be a net loss of revenue, even if it increases sales.
Let's look at this in a little more depth, then.
1. Person who is committed to buying at release (big fan of franchise)
1a. Buys full price (not necessarily Steam price, could be boxed copy, etc)
1b. Buys grey key - typically <50% UK price. Definite loss of revenue here, as grey key will be cheaper than anywhere else.
2. Person who waits for price point X. 95% of the time I'm in this category.
2a. Buys from auth reseller.
2b. Buys from key seller.
Any loss of revenue would entirely depend on the profit margin of the grey key seller vs other auth sellers. I'm going to assume here that grey key sellers have small profit margins, based solely on the sheer amount of competition (ie, number of grey key sellers in the market).
Thus if a person has a certain price point in mind, and won't buy above this, then it's hard to see grey key sellers hurting the devs bottom line, but it is still possible.
The difference to the buyer is that he will have the game sooner, and can more easily resist temptation to buy at "full" price, if a game is not part of any promotion for a considerable period of time (see Blizzard games, Rockstar games). This leads nicely to...
3. Person #3 would like to be Person #2, but caves in after a certain point in time. The game he wants isn't part of a sale yet, and due to all the hype and good reviews he's close to cracking.
3a. Buys from auth reseller. Price could be "full" UK price, or close to it.
3b. Buys from grey market.
Grey key sellers, at any given time - from release to forever - always cost less from what I've seen. The price is typically <50% UK auth seller price, and tends to be better than even Steam's sale pricing.
Thus you can only conclude that for person #3, there is a loss of revenue equal to the difference in price between the cheapest grey seller and the cheapest auth seller.
In fact the situation is the same as #1. The person wants the game, maybe doesn't buy on release, but due to positive reviews or whatever he is committed to buying before a sale.
Now, the pro-grey market sellers have some other hypothetical buyers:
5. Person who would normally pirate the game, because they want to play on release (doesn't like waiting, wants to stream the latest games to his Twitch followers, but isn't going to pay more than X).
This is pretty much the only situation I can see where you /might/ see some purchases made that would not have been otherwise. There are people, sadly, who
The chances of this person buying the game after they've completed it, even at sale price, is pretty slim. They've moved on to other things. Cheap keys on release might turn this into a sale.
But does it even begin to offset the loss from #1?
6. Person who isn't that interested, sees the game cheap on grey market, makes impulse purchase.
Person 6 could be equally well served by a Steam (etc) sale. As noted, the games on the grey market will hit cheaper price points sooner, so there is potential for loss of revenue. An "impulse" purchase on Steam could cost you £3, the same game on G2A at the same time could be £1. Alternatively, you still pay £3 and you impulse purchase the game months earlier.
Either way, probably not talking about a great deal of lost revenue, because impulse purchases tend to be months/years after release, at £7 or less for most people.
But again, there is potential for loss of revenue. Say you discover a game through Steam's Discovery Queue feature - and Steam's price is something you'd be happy to pay - but it's cheaper on G2A... You purchase on G2A, revenue has been lost...
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What if I pirate a game and bank transfer £1 to the developer? Or play another f2p game they released and make an £1 in game purchase to show them my appreciation? It's still money for work done/finished, correct?
Buying from those sites is not the same as buying the game on a discount. A company's business plan includes discounts so they don't affect the bottom line. Expected earnings are also included in the business plan and those are tied to each region. When UK gamers use key sites, the UK earnings decrease by a nominal value that is much higher than the increase in Russia or another developing country. Just like in the case piracy, this can be seen as a loss of income, hence the similarity.
The companies don't know what to do about it for the time being but don't that won't last forever. As the key sites grow, the developers'/publishers' income will be affected more and more so they will probably do something about it in the future.
I'm not saying you shouldn't do that. I'm saying that if piracy is frowned upon, so should this be.
Another thing worth mentioning is that buying from these sites increases the demand for the keys which are meant for developing countries, which causes price increases and since gamers in those countries are much poorer, that leads to, you guessed it, even more piracy.
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Associate
Some developers just suck and shoot themselves in the foot even when you are willing to chuck money at them
I like the occasional flutter on PS2 and to get the most from what i put into it that month, I want all access
Yet I have to go through calling a buddy/relative up (across the pond, no less) to pickup a gamecard when they do their grocery shop, then to either post it over or scan it to me because it seems like DBZ cards are even more difficult to get ahold of here than sonys used to be
DeyBreakGames won't take paypal unless you want their currency (which is forced down the throats of anyone that uses those gametime cards just to justify hiking the price)
And you can't even use the steam wallet feature to pay for the sub without attaching a bank card..
Whole point of using paypal in the first place is I can top it up myself removing the need to leave any card details there.. it mucks about when i try to use debit card, and the only reason I even have a credit card still is it used to be useful to have for my credit rating when getting a mortgage.. just daft
I'd had happily bought 12 months of subscription by this point (since the game changed hands) even knowing I might only really had played for 1/4 of it just to support a game that provided an occasional laugh
I like the occasional flutter on PS2 and to get the most from what i put into it that month, I want all access
Yet I have to go through calling a buddy/relative up (across the pond, no less) to pickup a gamecard when they do their grocery shop, then to either post it over or scan it to me because it seems like DBZ cards are even more difficult to get ahold of here than sonys used to be
DeyBreakGames won't take paypal unless you want their currency (which is forced down the throats of anyone that uses those gametime cards just to justify hiking the price)
And you can't even use the steam wallet feature to pay for the sub without attaching a bank card..
Whole point of using paypal in the first place is I can top it up myself removing the need to leave any card details there.. it mucks about when i try to use debit card, and the only reason I even have a credit card still is it used to be useful to have for my credit rating when getting a mortgage.. just daft
I'd had happily bought 12 months of subscription by this point (since the game changed hands) even knowing I might only really had played for 1/4 of it just to support a game that provided an occasional laugh
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Yet still no one has commented on the point raised by many that the cheaper keys mean, that more games get bought. If games were all £40 rrp without the opportunity to get games from grey key sites/from other regions, my game collection would be MUCH MUCH smaller.
Games are not like a fridge or a TV or many other things for that matter. Once you buy a TV, that is it, you probably will keep it for years and all other manufacturers have lost out to the one manufacturer you chose for sometime.
With games, there are absolutely *** loads. More than one person can play or buy in a lifetime most likely. I know for myself and others that buying grey market/cheaper keys just means I can buy more.
All you people against grey market keys act like everyone has unlimited budgets and that games are some sort of singular sparse commodity. They are not. £40-£50 is a lolworthy price.
Foxeye was talking about all the excited people that would likely buy games on release at full rrp if it was not for grey key sites...yes ok they might buy two or three at £40 a pop and then realise they have no money left for games and that's that. They have bought two or three games and that is their gaming budget blown for a while.
Take Battlefront for example. £49.99 on origin on release. About 2 months later it was on offer for 50% off for £24.99.
UK RRP's are total con whichever way you look at it.
Games are not like a fridge or a TV or many other things for that matter. Once you buy a TV, that is it, you probably will keep it for years and all other manufacturers have lost out to the one manufacturer you chose for sometime.
With games, there are absolutely *** loads. More than one person can play or buy in a lifetime most likely. I know for myself and others that buying grey market/cheaper keys just means I can buy more.
All you people against grey market keys act like everyone has unlimited budgets and that games are some sort of singular sparse commodity. They are not. £40-£50 is a lolworthy price.
Foxeye was talking about all the excited people that would likely buy games on release at full rrp if it was not for grey key sites...yes ok they might buy two or three at £40 a pop and then realise they have no money left for games and that's that. They have bought two or three games and that is their gaming budget blown for a while.
Take Battlefront for example. £49.99 on origin on release. About 2 months later it was on offer for 50% off for £24.99.
UK RRP's are total con whichever way you look at it.
Soldato
so every single game that has ever been pirated, the users have had the funds to purchase the games at full price and were willing to purchase these games had they not been available by other means.
did you check every pirates pockets as they download the games to see if they had enough money for the game ?
At the end of the day the people making it still make a profit. Look at say a graphics card, two the same but one comes with a game. Yet the price is £2 more for the one with a game, the profits are there still. It's just made to an extortionate profit at the retailers.
No doubt there are loads of people who pirate because they still want to play the games but cannot afford to buy them outright. However, and I have no doubt about this whatsoever, they are outnumbered massively by those who could easily afford to buy the games but who pirate because they can. Many of these people have massively fast connections, great spec (and expensive) PC's and very expensive, very large TVs. These things don't come cheap.
I do torrent TV shows (usually purely for early access and on occasion because I have no other option if I want to watch without waiting months or sometimes at all) and thanks to that I have visibility of other types of pirating things, mainly software and games. Comments such as 'works great and runs well on my 4k monitor and SLI 980ti's' and 'looks fantastic through my 4k projector' are commonplace. These people can clearly afford to buy the games but choose not to. Is it because it's so easy? Perhaps. Is it because human nature always means free is better than any charge at all? Who knows but you could charge $10 and some would still pirate.
Soldato
in the uk this is probably more true than some other places but we know this isnt always the case as some claim.
i used to pirate games, i dont now because i can afford the games, the key sites help a great deal. so would the developers like some of my money or none at all ?
Can you describe in detail how piracy is a definite "loss" of revenue, ignoring the fact that you can't lose something you never had?
Associate
Cheap Steam keys exists because of geographical pricing practices.
Basically, there are usually four parties present in the transaction:
1) consumer
2) distributor
3) marketplace
4) gamestudio
Game studio is a relatively small company (or a subsidiary of a big compary) that actually makes the game.
Marketplace is steam / appstore / whatnot
Distributor is a big umbrella that usually manages distribution of multiple studios
We'll discuss the business from the point of view of the last:
Often distributors fund a portion of the game development in exchange for exclusive distribution rights and a big portion of the income generated by the sales.
Let's consider the options that the distributor has in terms of setting the price:
1) Optimize the price of the game at "western customer purchase power level" and sell at that price on whole globe
2) Optimize the price of the game in each country according to the purchase power and estimated desirability of the game in that particular country
Quite obviously, if you set the price on global level to $£50€, it won't see much sales in Cambodia and Vietnam, because it is just too expensive for local people.
Assuming that they could only set one price on the whole globe, this high pricing still often maximise the profits, because this is the "expected pricing" for a AAA title in west and they will still sell the game in rich countries to everyone who wants it. The sales they lose in poor countries would not cover the "losses" incurred from lowering the price globally, because to increase the sales in poor countries they'd need to lower the price substantially.
However, this doesn't necessarily maximise total profits. If they price the game to this £$50€ in rich countries, and to $25 in JUST Cambodia, they get exactly the same amount of money in rich countries, but sales in Cambodia could increase so much, that it is a overall win for the distributor.
In the end this is called "value based pricing". If distributors could decide, they would set individual pricing to each and every one of us, because things have different value to each one of us. I will never pay $£50€ for GTA, but if I get it for a tenner, I will grab it. However, for the guy next door who had waited for GTA V for years, even £99 for GTA V deluxe edition was a nobrainer, because he just knew he'd love it.
My thinking is that, the more these cheap grey import keys are "abused", the higher distributors will need to price them and the more difficult it becomes for the poor fellows in Cambodia to get a legit GTA V...
So personally I try to avoid grey market games, because I think I'm "robbing" cheap games from "relatively" poor gamers of Ethiopia and Cambodia. Someone in Ethiopia / Cambodia earning £$400€/month is easily considered well of, but I can easily see why they'd think twice before buying 50 for a AAA game.
In the end, this is very much a YMMV thing and for someone working their a** off in a minimum wage job while flat sharing in London, £50 is just too much...
Basically, there are usually four parties present in the transaction:
1) consumer
2) distributor
3) marketplace
4) gamestudio
Game studio is a relatively small company (or a subsidiary of a big compary) that actually makes the game.
Marketplace is steam / appstore / whatnot
Distributor is a big umbrella that usually manages distribution of multiple studios
We'll discuss the business from the point of view of the last:
Often distributors fund a portion of the game development in exchange for exclusive distribution rights and a big portion of the income generated by the sales.
Let's consider the options that the distributor has in terms of setting the price:
1) Optimize the price of the game at "western customer purchase power level" and sell at that price on whole globe
2) Optimize the price of the game in each country according to the purchase power and estimated desirability of the game in that particular country
Quite obviously, if you set the price on global level to $£50€, it won't see much sales in Cambodia and Vietnam, because it is just too expensive for local people.
Assuming that they could only set one price on the whole globe, this high pricing still often maximise the profits, because this is the "expected pricing" for a AAA title in west and they will still sell the game in rich countries to everyone who wants it. The sales they lose in poor countries would not cover the "losses" incurred from lowering the price globally, because to increase the sales in poor countries they'd need to lower the price substantially.
However, this doesn't necessarily maximise total profits. If they price the game to this £$50€ in rich countries, and to $25 in JUST Cambodia, they get exactly the same amount of money in rich countries, but sales in Cambodia could increase so much, that it is a overall win for the distributor.
In the end this is called "value based pricing". If distributors could decide, they would set individual pricing to each and every one of us, because things have different value to each one of us. I will never pay $£50€ for GTA, but if I get it for a tenner, I will grab it. However, for the guy next door who had waited for GTA V for years, even £99 for GTA V deluxe edition was a nobrainer, because he just knew he'd love it.
My thinking is that, the more these cheap grey import keys are "abused", the higher distributors will need to price them and the more difficult it becomes for the poor fellows in Cambodia to get a legit GTA V...
So personally I try to avoid grey market games, because I think I'm "robbing" cheap games from "relatively" poor gamers of Ethiopia and Cambodia. Someone in Ethiopia / Cambodia earning £$400€/month is easily considered well of, but I can easily see why they'd think twice before buying 50 for a AAA game.
In the end, this is very much a YMMV thing and for someone working their a** off in a minimum wage job while flat sharing in London, £50 is just too much...
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Soldato
What about pricing option number 3:
3) Optimize the price of the game at "Ethiopia/Cambodia/etc. customer purchase power level" and sell at that price on whole globe
The company obviously doesn't lose money at this price point or they wouldn't sell it at that price at all.
It'll probably come down to the company wanting to rip off people as much as they can by charging far more where they think they can. Great morals and ethics these large companies...
Man of Honour
Please can I remind everyone that whatever your views on this subject and/or piracy, DO NOT post any links to examples of torrents or openly state that you use torrents for games, tv, films, etc. This is against the forum rules.
Thank you.
Thank you.
But the price will come down to £25, or even £10, without the grey key sites.
So even if no grey sites existed at all, people who don't spend £50 on a game would still be catered for.
What you say is "extra sales" is nothing of the sort. You don't /have/ to buy on release.
These "extra sales" might simply have come later on, when the price fell.
Unless you're saying that most people /can't wait/, and thus it's a straight up choice between RRP and piracy.
Caporegime
If it were tha much of a problem then I'm sure it would not be beyond Steam to track the use of keys in the UK to resellers in Bulgaria or wherever. One could reasonably assume that they know which particular keys have been sold to which resellers and which country they're intended for. If it were a problem they could crack down on the resellers selling outside their borders by refusing to sell keys to them.
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