Steam prices! Grey key sites! and the I love/hate developers thread - Enter if you dare!

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I think a vast majority of this forum use them, plus those who don't use this forum.

But the point remains, the the devs are happy to sell a key to a website at a price that is already making them some profit, they arent going to shoot themselves in the foot by demanding everyone pay 60-80% more and losing sales.

They know for a fact selling to G2A, kinguin, CJS that their EU keys will be sold to UK buyers, and they're happy to let that happen. If they weren't it wouldnt happen!

They aren't selling EU keys at a loss just to jump sales, that £20 key I buy from a key site might be priced at that to ensure they make £10 profit in that region per key. The UK one makes £40 profit though which is an obvious bonus.

Plus take into account steam sales. These aren't like shop sales which are used to increase floor space/clear out old stock, these are used to gain residual income from an already dead market for that game. Thats the benefit of digital media, theres no stock involved and a company can generate income 10 years + down the line without having any manufacturing costs
 
Jono8 said:
I am sorry, but if they can legally source me a cheap key, good on them. .
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The situation is very similar to HMRC closing tax avoidance loopholes. They aren't bothered if it's one or two people, even if they're very rich and avoiding a lot of tax.

But if everybody in this country starting using those loopholes, legal tho they are, they'd be closed pretty quick.

Again, if everybody in the UK/US/EU bought Indian keys at Indian prices, region locks would have to go on.

I don't see you arguing against that logic.
 
FoxEye said:
You don't really have any data to back that up. Not that I do either, but it's speculation at best.
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Thats very true I don't, and I can't find any source to back it up other than our own daily deals thread, but surely if it was truely damaging devs and studios theyd be crying it from the rooftops wouldn't they?!
 
Tax avoidance is completely legal and HRMC and the Government don't seem to be doing a whole lot to stop it from happening because they're either being extensively lobbied by these companies or, as is more likely, they're almost being threatened that if the rules change these companies will simply leave and go elsewhere. This is especially true in London where nearly every major financial institution has said that if there's any major change in the law that means more governance and regulation they'll simply up sticks and relocate to where there's less.
 
FoxEye said:
The situation is very similar to HMRC closing tax avoidance loopholes. They aren't bothered if it's one or two people, even if they're very rich and avoiding a lot of tax.

But if everybody in this country starting using those loopholes, legal tho they are, they'd be closed pretty quick.

Again, if everybody in the UK/US/EU bought Indian keys at Indian prices, region locks would have to go on.

I don't see you arguing against that logic.
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But it isn't a loophole. Buying a product (whether it is a speaker system or a game key, it doesn't matter) from one place for a certain price and then selling it somewhere else for a profit is pretty much how the global economy works! It is not a loophole, it is capitalism!
 
MissChief said:
Tax avoidance is completely legal and HRMC and the Government don't seem to be doing a whole lot to stop it from happening because they're either being extensively lobbied by these companies or, as is more likely, they're almost being threatened that if the rules change these companies will simply leave and go elsewhere. This is especially true in London where nearly every major financial institution has said that if there's any major change in the law that means more governance and regulation they'll simply up sticks and relocate to where there's less.
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Don't know if anyone saw Dispatches on C4 on Monday? It was about personal tax avoidance, not the corporate kind.

HMRC are painted as a completely ineffective organisation, guilty of spinning the numbers to make it look like they're successfully cracking down on avoidance schemes. In fact there are multiple schemes allowing 100% tax avoidance, that are entirely legal, and fairly commonly used by high earners.

The thing is, it's only done by the (relative) few who do not feel guilty about it, and have the means and incentive to do it. Your average Joe is either paying tax through PAYE, or at least declaring his earning honestly.

Should we all start avoiding 100% of our tax through these schemes, they'd have to be scrapped.

It's an imperfect world.
 
Jono8 said:
But it isn't a loophole. Buying a product (whether it is a speaker system or a game key, it doesn't matter) from one place for a certain price and then selling it somewhere else for a profit is pretty much how the global economy works! It is not a loophole, it is capitalism!
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And should the devs decide to aggressively use region locking in future, you'll have your answer.

It is not "capitalism" to compete with yourself.

As noted with the concert tickets scenario, most vendors don't like competing with themselves. If they choose to sell tickets cheaply to a given demographic, they want to be sure that those tickets don't end up in the hands of another, more lucrative demographic.

So a dev selling cheaply to one region, then finding those keys being used in a more lucrative region, is simply competing with himself. Should this become the norm....

... Well, what would you do if you were that dev? Decide that all keys should be sold at Indian prices? Or take steps to protect your regional pricing structure.

Tell us what you'd do if you wanted the best return on your investment, and suddenly everybody was buying at Indian prices...
 
cadmunkey said:
You say it as though that'd be a bad thing?? Hate to say it but if average Joe had access to these schemes then hardly any of them would voluntarily pay tax.
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Um, how could it be anything other than a bad thing, if the entire country stopped paying tax?

Do you think we'd be better off? Are you Greek? :p
 
GoogalyMoogaly said:
If publishers dislike grey market sites, why do they keep selling codes to them (or their suppliers)?
It can't be hard to keep track of who you sell your codes to and who is then selling them surely?
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Exactly, On Kinguin, G2play is rated as having completed well over 1 million satisfactory sales, and there are several big sellers like them. That is big money and if it was being unfairly made the games people would not be turning a blind eye to it, They would be all over it like a rash.
 
Jono8 said:
^ But i still fail to see what is wrong with buying something at a low price in one country and selling it to make a profit in another. It is called capitalism and whether you like it or not, that is what is going on at some point with 99% of the goods you all buy.

I honestly fail to see why people are so up in arms about it :confused:
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There's nothing wrong with key sites however some sellers and buyers do use them to circumvent paying the tax that should be paid for goods entering the UK.

I've used sites that ask my country of origin and then add the tax on to my bill. Telling lies then to avoid paying the extra few quid is one problem.
The whole system does need regulating better but overall as long as you are using it as it should be used then saving yourself 10 or 20 quid is not only fine but it makes sense.
 
I'll just wade in here and say that I use the grey key sites regularly - if they didn't exist then I wouldn't have bought most of the games at all!
I don't want to pay £25 for a game unless it's one that I REALLY want....I will however pay up to £10 and that's what I tend to do. The developer gets a sale and I get to play the game....win/win!
 
Musty Pie said:
HAHAHA!

And before you pipe up Fox no I had nothing else useful to add
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I'm well used to that.

Regardless of what you think about nVidia promotional codes (we've discussed this to death now), the fact is that it represents 1 game out of ~200 in my Steam library.

The rest were all bought either direct from Steam or from places like GreenMan.

You're latching on the one thing you think makes my whole argument void, when in reality it does nothing of the sort.

If you want to put me in the camp with people who use the grey market to get games at Indian prices, well that's your mistake not mine.
 
I'm not placing you in that camp at all my friend. That might be your assumption - but believe me I am /well/ aware you do not agree with the grey market keys as you have let us all know with continual concrete counter arguments!

I am merely amused by the fact you tried fruitlessly to argue the fact that buying an Nvidia code via e-bay is different to a grey market key. Then only to later use an example of OAP ticket prices/reselling to prove a point.

Tickled me somewhat.
 
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