Step son in motorbike crash

[Banzai_Joe]

So, yesterday was interesting;
one of my step sons was smashed off his Kawasaki by a woman in a car.
He was taken to hospital conscious, with suspected broken wrist and ankle. Turns out his ankle is fine but he may need plates/pins in his wrist as his knuckles were pushed right back towards his wrist (so i'm told).
I didn't make it to the hospital due to horrendous traffic and his mum rang me saying "it's ok, no need to come back".
Police aren't taking it any further so its down to insurance.
As an 18 year old he has TPFT only and it looks like its a 6 of one half a dozen of the other kind of accident where either could be blamed.

His hand damage could bugger up his career, he's an apprentice plumber and very talented guitar player who plays/sings solo and in band.

Does anyone have any idea what we/he should do next regarding insurance? It's likely that they won't pay out, however the concern is his hand. Is there any avenue he can pursue for claiming for an injury.
This is not a "ooh i can claim loads of money" thread. This is genuine, if the damage is that bad it could ruin his chosen profession. I'm pretty sure most would agree that plumbers need their hands to work effectively.

Apparently the woman driver of the car has already written off 3 cars, not sure how that info came about....or whether even relevant.

He's certainly lucky not to be more injured as he flew across her bonnet, both bike and car are write-offs!

I feel really sorry for him, he'd only turned 18 in April, had gotten himself a good career path earning his own money, lovely girlfriend, loving his music.....then this! He cannot go back to work until his hand is fully operational (H&S at work policy).

 

[Banzai_Joe]

Can you tell us what actually happened? I can't see how he can claim for injuries if he is 50% culpable.

Ok from what i can gather, he was in a traffic queue (dual carriageway), and as most bikers do, i believe he decided to go between the 2 lanes of traffic.
A van decided to reverse (as he was blocking the entrance to a road) and let the woman in the car out of said road, she apparently shot straight out to join the traffic queue and hit Peter side on so he flew across the bonnet.
Now if i can envision this correctly, she was probably coming across to go into the left lane but Peter's vision (or lack of experience) was reduced due to the van height so as she cut across the lanes he was between the lanes and the front of his bike hit the front nearside of her car sending him flying. His knees (luckily knee-padded) hit his petrol tank and buckled it right in. Lucky he didn't castrate himself i reckon.

As regards blame and claim....i'm really not sure......someone suggested the van driver could even be at fault.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

Sounds like she didnt give way to traffic to me and is at fault

Yeah. I mean regardless of Peter's inexperience, surely it was still his right of way and she should have checked regardless?

I'll try and get a more detailed account of what happened later and post back.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

2 words back.
Err...what?

 

[Banzai_Joe]

Thanks for the input folks. I too think that at least 50% of this is down to his inexperience, but you know what teenagers are like, always think they know better. If he humbles himself a little then he may well learn a lesson from this. If he's stubborn and maintains it was her fault then he'll learn nothing and may well come a cropper again.
We'll see. He's at fracture clinic right now have the cast put on.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

Whilst i'm trying to sit on the fence with this, surely the woman has to take some responsbility. I asked Peter's friend who was there, he kind of edged towards a 50:50 blame but he did say, "she came straight out and straight across the lanes without looking"
Also, if the van driver is going to reverse to let her out does he not take any responsibility to ensure its safe before allowing her out? If she did indeed shoot straight out and across the lanes then that indicates she hurried to beat maybe oncoming traffic.

Maz, you said he was "clearly filtering too fast". How can you tell? Is 10mph too fast? I'm just thinking if she came across the lanes fast and basically hit him thus his bike came to a dead stop then surely even at 10mph he'd go over his own handlebars and her bonnet?
I'm not saying he wasn't going too fast, i'm just wondering how fast one of them would need to be going to cause such a collision.

I don't know, i guess it will be down to any (if any) witness accounts.

When some eejit pranged me a few years ago, he at first admitted blame, then denied it, to which my insurance said without witnesses it will be a 50:50 split. He then did admit it and all was sorted in my favour.

edit: just got off the phone with his mum. He needs surgery to his wrist (not hand as i thought). its a really nasty break and plates/pins are needed which will reduce his mobility but hopefully not too much as he's only 18 and should heal well.
Got to ring back every morning between 6-7am to try and get a surgey slot!! wtf?!?!? If it aint done quickly his bones will start to knit together in thr wrong way. I know....happened to me.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

Where does this notion that his entire career is ruined come from? Surely most people recover from this sort of injury? I did exactly the same thing years ago, bend my wirst right back and broke it and I had to have it pinned as well. I made a full recovery and have full use of my wrist - the only hint it was ever done are the two scars where the pins went in which I still have. There was never even any question about whether I would regain full use of my hand or not?

It came from the mind of an 18 year old who just had a nasty accident.
See the edit on my last post too for an update to the prognosis.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

Going over handle bars is one thing. Totalling a car and the bike is something else. You wont write a car off hitting it at 10mph in a bike....

Yeah....i guess. I think there are a lot of chinese whispers going around. I'd personally be surprised if the car is totalled. I've not seen either vehicle or step-son yet, so am only going on what i was told.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

She placed the car in front of him with no time to stop and he was filtering carefully. You can't really put a speed on "filtering dangerously", by law the guidance is to simply filter with care. At no point during motorcycle training are you told to filter at speed X or speed Y, rather to do so with care if you do chose to do it. I would say in this circumstance, how can a motorcyclist be put at fault if she has come across two lanes in front of him? Not really fair is it.

It's not the Van drivers fault at all. If you flash your lights at someone to come out of a junction and they crash, it's their falt for assessing it was safe to come out. The Van driver "aided" her pulling out of said junction but is in no way accountable. He was clearing a path, not checking up the road behind him as well.

Car drivers will typically point and blame bikers. Bikers vice verca. But I don't see how car drivers should be allowed to get away with this kind of thing. She pulled out and caused an accident. End of. He was hardly doing 100mph. Bikes filter. People should be used to that by 2012 you'd think.

Thanks jaybee, that's a seemingly very fair assumption.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

We've no idea if thats how it happened.

Lol, that's actually true fox, we don't know fully yet. It 'seems' like that's how it happened.
It would be mildy amusing if the true story of events is totally different to the way i've portrayed it (as told to me).

 

[Banzai_Joe]

Riiiiiiight then.....just spoken to Peter and this is what actually happened.
Single lane of traffice queueing up to lights.
About 100yds before the lights is a side road on the left.
The white van was obsurring the entrance/exit to the road so he reversed to allow a woman to pull out and turn right. This happened as Peter was overtaking down the outside of the traffic. There was no oncoming traffic and he was doing about 30-35mph. He said the woman just pulled out and as there was no oncoming traffic she obviously didn't bother looking right and WHAM! Peter went straight into her drivers side. He said he had no clue she was there or chance to stop, no skid marks (except in his pants) just WHAM, then he flew over the bonnet.
The car is indeed totalled according to the police as is his bike. (this is her third write-off including a range rover )
The police have witness statements and personally i think the woman is in the wrong.
Peter maybe should have exercised a little more caution and gone slower, but maybe that's just his inexperience. What she did was negligent. If the van obscurred your view then surely you'd edge out rather than blindly just go for it. For the very reason of avoiding what happened.
This has happened to me a few times in the past tbh. Actually the other week i was berated by a bloke cos i didn't let him out, but there was a cyclist coming past me on my right, so the same kind of accident could have happened. I looked in my mirror before deciding whether to let the bloke out, thought it too dangerous and decided against it.

So, now you know what truly happened, what do you guys think?

Lol, Peter's excess is £800, the bike is worth £900, however if his insurance win then he doesn't pay anything does he?

 

[Banzai_Joe]

He wasn't illegally speeding, its a 60mph road. Yes, he was approaching the lights but at 100yds away 30-35mph not excessive i don't think.
It may well have been that the timing was so unfortunate that both he and the woman were passing the same blind spot of the van (seeing as its taller and longer than most cars) at the same time and so coulldn't see each other at all.
To all the riders out there, is your peripheral vision on a bike better than in a car? It seems so, but then i guess you have to concentrate more on what's in front as well?

 

[Banzai_Joe]

Thanks Imy,
but the way i see it, is that Peter could have used more caution but she pulled out regardless into his direction of travel. She effectively 'trusted' the van driver, who let her out but didn't bother to check his mirror. If he had, then maybe he'd have seen Peter coming on his outside. Again, this is what happened to me and so i didn't let the driver out (to his frustration, but it possibly avoided a collision).
Yes if Peter had been going slower he would have noticed the gap, but if her view was so blocked she should have nosed out. Then Peter would have had more chance of seeing her and more chance of either braking or swerving to avoid her.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

I'm thinking this as well. Sounds like he was flying up the outside on the wrong side of the road and she wasn't expecting him to be doing so.

I partly agree, but you could then argue the other way too.....she flew out of the junction and he wasn't expecting her to be doing so.

Anyway, hopefully this amy give more of an insight those more experienced in this kind of thing.


Apparently he landed near the medics bags

 

[Banzai_Joe]

Regarding the speed of his filtering, I was always taught the 20:20 rule, never filter when traffic is travelling faster than 20 mph, and never filter more than 20mph over the traffics speed. The benefit of hindsight...

Hope he recovers well, I wish him all the best

Thanks paddy, that sounds like a fair rule tbh 20:20....yeah, good call.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

Agreed, filtering is usually 10 or so mph above the speed of traffic. In my opinion the driver will take 100% of the blame but in truth your step son should have been aware enough to avoid it.

Agreed. I think this is where his youth and inexperience comes in.......and hence the high price of insurance for young drivers.
Don't know the ages of the car driver, but as i've said its her 3rd write-off, so maybe she's not the best example of a responsible driver either.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

This is going to seem harsh, but what the hey.

He overtook a long line of traffic at 30-35 mph past a junction that he can't see into? I'm surprised this is the first time he's been in hospital with injuries like these. That's just stupidity.

If the truck reversed to let someone out, then the traffic was clearly at a standstill on his side of the road. Excessive speed, and I hope he gets done for dangerous driving tbh. Glad it was a car that came out infront of him and not a person crossing the road.

Think of the children comments are not required.

You wonder why bikers get a bad name.

Fair point mate, i'll not sit and defend him purely because he's my step-son, but for as much as people are saying he was in the wrong, there are as many saying it was the woman's fault. Her history of car crashes may indicate her driving style. Witnesses said she didn't look or nose-out, she just went for it.
It was a van., not a truck. Sounds pedantic, but he'd be a real idiot if he didn't see a truck reversing, a van? maybe less obvious if he was concentrating on the road directly ahead, i don't know.
I now agree with most that Peter was going too fast for filtering, but i honestly think this is down to lack of experience rather than showboating or being blatantly negligent etc.
I'm sure he'll learn from this.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

I am often the push bike in situations like these, and have to be very careful for cars coming out of side roads towards me. There is no way the car driver should expect me to be there, or can even see me. I'm on the wrong side of the road and the responsibility is mine to see junctions and prepare for cars possibly pulling out.

Yes, but its equally the car drivers responsibility to check the road is clear BOTH WAYS before pulling out.

edit: just to reiterate, the police are not taking any further action, so they obviously don't think a driving offence has been committed.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

I'm struggling to understand how it would've been any different if she had slowly edged out. She's still going to "suddenly" appear round the corner of the van if you're going at 30mph past traffic. I really don't think her edging out slowly would've made the slightest difference.

You're saying she should have checked for traffic coming both ways, but how could she have done so without blocking his path? Even if she slowly edged out the entire bonnet of her car will be in his way before she gets the chance to see him! Is she supposed to have some sort of magical ability to see around corners?!

Edging out would have allowed HIM TO SEE HER surely, and depending on his distance from her at that time could have given him chance to brake or swerve to avoid.
It's what i would have done without a doubt. I would never have just shot out and across if i couldn't see. Edging out she still may not see him, but he'd then see her.

Ok, if he was going say 15mph and he was a van's left away when she pulled out, he would have still hit her. There wouldn't have been as much damage but there would almost certainly have still been impact. If she'd edged out AND if he'd gone slower then he may have seen the nose of her car and braked or swerved.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

Blimey, no wonder insurance can be so hard to sort out, there is clearly a division of who thinks who is at fault here.
I'm surprised the police haven't made a statement regarding their opinion on who is at fault, after all they should have the most experience with RTA's.