Streamer/DAC - Where did I go wrong ?

Psycho Sonny said:
Isn't this law of diminishing returns?

Once you hit the £1500-£2500 barrier after that your spending £9K more to get marginal improvements. Or you bought overpriced parts if there is no improvement.

I'd say you could have saved yourself £9K but you can do what you want with it.
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I'm conscious that even though most of my kit was s/h, it cost a similar amount overall (would have been well out of reach at full RRP).
I wouldn't say the difference between a system I could buy for £2k would be marginal.
Sure, it's value is really down to the person buying it, just as it is for any luxury goods, whether that is watches, cars or model railways, just saying.
 
Mr_Sukebe said:
I'm conscious that even though most of my kit was s/h, it cost a similar amount overall (would have been well out of reach at full RRP).
I wouldn't say the difference between a system I could buy for £2k would be marginal.
Sure, it's value is really down to the person buying it, just as it is for any luxury goods, whether that is watches, cars or model railways, just saying.
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https://www.amazon.co.uk/AudioQuest-Coffee-Cable-Black-silver/dp/B00434A71Q

Do you have a £350 usb cable?

I would think that is at least £300 overpriced.
 
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Psycho Sonny said:
Isn't this law of diminishing returns?

Once you hit the £1500-£2500 barrier after that your spending £9K more to get marginal improvements. Or you bought overpriced parts if there is no improvement.

I'd say you could have saved yourself £9K but you can do what you want with it.
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Out of curiosity, what's your experience with listening to a variety of £10k+ systems?
 
Mr_Sukebe said:
Out of curiosity, what's your experience with listening to a variety of £10k+ systems?
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I own a £800 soundbar, my dad has a £1500 soundbar.

I own a new cost circa £3K 5.1 system as my main set up.

I've also owned headphone dac/amp's ranging from £20 all the way up to £800 and roughly at least 10 in between that price range.

I also own several headphones and had plenty more in the past ranging from £30 all the way up to £800. Including planar magnetics and several sennheisers including the HD700.

I found with headphones at least it was marginal at best whether you spent £100 or £1K on headphones. But not all £100 headphones are good majority are crap. it has to be the right £100 headphone like the AKG K702.

I would therefore say that likely translates to speakers. If you spend £2K on the right system it's likely not that much inferior to a £10K system like OP's.

A £350 usb cable isn't needed on any system regardless of cost.
 
Mr_Sukebe said:
Out of curiosity, what's your experience with listening to a variety of £10k+ systems?
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Heard a >£100k Linn system at my local dealer a couple of years ago and it was the best system I've ever heard.
Heard a different £70k Linn system, which was in a very different environment, and was quite disappointed with it, after my previous Linn experience.

It's worth visiting a good hifi show to appreciate the differences between brands and budgets.
Having said that many folks are quite happy listening to mp3 and don't want anything better.

Over the years I've carefully upgraded my hifi setup from budget gear to the £10k+ system I have now and the difference to my ears are night and day.

I've made some mistakes along the way and the biggest thing that I've learnt is that gear can sound quite different at home from when you auditioned it in the dealers showroom.
 
Psycho Sonny said:
Okay I'm going out to buy a £350 USB cable right now. Its definitely needed
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You see the problem here is one of credibility.
Whilst I'm struggling to understand how a USB cable could possibly affect sound quality, the rest of what you've suggested is just conjecture.
- You've suggested that your experience with headphones allows you to guestimate sound increases with normal stereo systems. My experience is that it's simply not the case. A number of years ago, I looked at simplifying my system and going with only cans. I borrowed a headphone amp to use with my HD600s and also a Stax system. After 2 days of comparing, I returned both as for me, neither got close to my system, which back then was reasonable, but nothing close to what I now use
- You've stated that a £10k system is not really better, with seemingly zero experience. If you're genuinely interested, I don't know why you've not bothered. It's really not hard, just visit a decent show, some good dealers or if you have the chance, visit some people who have higher priced systems. Don't get me wrong, I've come across some really bad sounding systems regardless of price. However, I've also heard some that sound utterly sublime and make my own sound a little broken in comparison. At least you'll then have a reference point to understand what it's important to you (as we're not all the same)

Right now, you're just throwing stones over the wall, with pretty much bugger all credibility. It's like a Corsa driver trying to tell someone with a TVR why it's pointless.
 
Mr_Sukebe said:
You see the problem here is one of credibility.
Whilst I'm struggling to understand how a USB cable could possibly affect sound quality, the rest of what you've suggested is just conjecture.
- You've suggested that your experience with headphones allows you to guestimate sound increases with normal stereo systems. My experience is that it's simply not the case. A number of years ago, I looked at simplifying my system and going with only cans. I borrowed a headphone amp to use with my HD600s and also a Stax system. After 2 days of comparing, I returned both as for me, neither got close to my system, which back then was reasonable, but nothing close to what I now use
- You've stated that a £10k system is not really better, with seemingly zero experience. If you're genuinely interested, I don't know why you've not bothered. It's really not hard, just visit a decent show, some good dealers or if you have the chance, visit some people who have higher priced systems. Don't get me wrong, I've come across some really bad sounding systems regardless of price. However, I've also heard some that sound utterly sublime and make my own sound a little broken in comparison. At least you'll then have a reference point to understand what it's important to you (as we're not all the same)

Right now, you're just throwing stones over the wall, with pretty much bugger all credibility. It's like a Corsa driver trying to tell someone with a TVR why it's pointless.
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I tested DAC and AMP's from £20 all the way up to £800 for headphone use. I found once you hit the £150-£250 mark after that you were paying considerably more money for details which tbh didn't add a lot. You could have lived without them very minute differences. Also each amp and sometimes even DAC's will colour the sound. This will translate into speaker amp's as well.

Sound is very subjective. A lot of people highly recommended hifiman he400's I bought and used them for 6 months I found them very fatiguing yet they are rated as one of the best you can buy. I didn't like their treble. They weren't for me however loads of people love them. I didn't like them.

You have people who also spend £200 on a cable for £150 headphones. That is quite frankly laughable IMO. The same translates to speakers. People spending money on overpriced crap which does the job no better than a £30 or £40 cable which has been well made. That is the hard part a lot of people don't bother to do any research and buy a crap £40 cable then decide all £40 cables are crap then buy a £300 cable or you have people saying you need this £300 cable as it's the best. You don't need the best in most circumstances. You can get away with second or third best and find very little difference between the two.

My choice if I'm going out to the cinema is it must be IMAX. I won't go to a normal cinema. Now the sound system in there yes is mind blowing but I know that it's also impossible to replicate in a home scenario the best you can get is like a 7.2.4 atmos system without getting too ridiculous and that is already ridiculous to begin with.

I've watched mad max fury road at IMAX twice. I've also seen it at home using just built in tv speakers and using a 5.1 system. Yes there is a difference but I could never replicate IMAX and you have to look at value for money as well. I can add atmos to my setup at home I have a capable AVR in fact I think I could go 7.1.2 with my current AVR however I could no longer BI-AMP my fronts if I do so. I found using my 5.1 system at home I enjoyed the film slightly less than IMAX but that's because I had that reference to draw from. If I hadn't seen it at IMAX I wouldn't have had it therefore I would have been blown away at home. Guess what when I walked out the cinema even my wife was like wow that was epic. Absolutely mind blowing as she hates action films. The sound is 90% of that movie. Now I had guests over who had never seen it and they use TV speakers in their home. When they left my home they were blown away by my system it was the exact same thing as what happened to me at the cinema. However I'd say my system at home doesn't need 360 speakers or however many they have in IMAX I can get close to that sound with less than £5K new or £3K second hand. I could go even cheaper to say as low as £800 and still get 95% of the same experience if not more. That extra 5% isn't worth spending £9K extra on.

I don't have a corsa like I say my bedroom setup is a £800 soundbar. I'm willing to bet my bedroom setup beats 99% of home living room setups out there because the average person either uses tv speakers or a £200 soundbar, so I value sound quality a lot higher than most if my bedroom setup beats most living room set ups. My living room setup is pretty epic. I don't know a single person personally who has a better living room set up than mine. Most people use TV speakers or a cheap soundbar. Majority of people just don't care.

Lets use the car analogy. I drive a fast car. It does 0-60 in around 5 seconds. Yes a Bugatti Veyron can do it in 2.5 seconds. However the average car does it in over 10 seconds the corsa can take up to 16 seconds depending on the model. I can get at least 95% of the experience with my car as it's fast and a lot faster than the average car user. Yes it won't be directly comparable to a Bugatti but value for money wise I'm getting practically the same experience for less than 5% of the cost.

Law of diminishing returns. There comes a point where you know what you can get better but it's just not worth it. It's why I bought a 2070 super and not a 2080 super. It wasn't worth it. Even though I can afford it, it's pointless to spend £400 more to get at best 5% more.
 
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Lot of words, but none of it justifies throwing pointless noise into a discussion when it's purely based upon guestimation.
Do yourself a favour and go have a listen, otherwise you're really not helping anyone.
 
Psycho Sonny said:
... my bedroom setup is a £800 soundbar. I'm willing to bet my bedroom setup beats 99% of home living room setups out there because the average person either uses tv speakers or a £200 soundbar, so I value sound quality a lot higher than most if my bedroom setup beats most living room set ups. My living room setup is pretty epic. I don't know a single person personally who has a better living room set up than mine. Most people use TV speakers or a cheap soundbar. Majority of people just don't care.
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Now where have I heard that kind of rhetoric before?

Ah-ha!
I have it.
You are Donald Trump, and I claim my £5.


:D :D :D
 
Mr_Sukebe said:
Lot of words, but none of it justifies throwing pointless noise into a discussion when it's purely based upon guestimation.
Do yourself a favour and go have a listen, otherwise you're really not helping anyone.
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It's not guesstimate when I have listened to high end and I own high end headphone setups.

I use a Creative X7 every day with AKG Q701's, I also have HD600 and HD700's as well as at least 10 other pairs of IEM's and headphones for other uses. I just ordered a wireless set to compliment my other wireless set too.

https://www.scarbir.com/

That is a good website where he tells you comparisons between £300 IEM's and £20 ones and you would be surprised at some of the results.
 
@Mr_Sukebe is saying that your experience with headphones doesn't translate to speakers. The two delivery methods are different. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses, and experience in one type doesn't endow you with the ability to make predictions how the other will perform.

Practical example: Big speakers make bass you can feel in your body. Headphones don't do that. At the same time though, headphones are relatively immune to room acoustics but speakers are not.
 
So Pyscho, how would you rate Shure SE535 IEM ? I have some, I also have systems that exceed your law of diminishing returns.... I don't own a soundbar, probably never will.
 
I'm currently upgrading my Innuos Zen Mk3 to a Zenith, the Chord M Scaler and Hugo Tt2 were next on my list to try. I know it's all subjective, but I was a little surprised by the OPs post.

Now obviously I have to audition these with the rest of my system, but in isolation I thought these two Chord items were ideal; upsampling your CD quality music to 768khz seemed to me like a no brainer.
 
naefeart said:
I'm currently upgrading my Innuos Zen Mk3 to a Zenith, the Chord M Scaler and Hugo Tt2 were next on my list to try. I know it's all subjective, but I was a little surprised by the OPs post.

Now obviously I have to audition these with the rest of my system, but in isolation I thought these two Chord items were ideal; upsampling your CD quality music to 768khz seemed to me like a no brainer.
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Genuine question: Why?

It doesn't change what's on the disc.If it's changing the sound wave then it's adding or subtracting data (both) so it's getting further away from the truth of what was recorded.

What do you find better about up-sampled CD audio?
 
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