Streamer/DAC - Where did I go wrong ?
- Thread starter DeepsleepUK
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I like to think of CD upsampling as being the audio equivalent of anti aliasing in video games.
Yeah, that's the common-knowledge understanding of the process of digitisation. However, it's not a true reflection of what's really going on.
Have you seen this?:
I can see what you're getting at. What throws a spanner in the works is that analogue audio signals rarely starts out as being made in the same way as the polygons of some game play, and of course they end up back in the analogue domain again after the ADC/DAC process.
I don't believe you should ignore it. But I do think that you should understand it and - most importantly - be able to hear if oversampling at progressively higher rates really makes a difference to the sound to you as opposed to what reviewers and fan boys think.
The point of oversampling is to help fix some problems arising from the ADC/DAC process when the (mostly) analogue wave forms are converted to digital and back. Without upsampling, there is noise in the final signal that is both difficult and expensive to filter out digitally and in the analogue domain.
Increasing the sampling frequency makes it easier to filter in the digital domain, but it doesn't fix everything.
@naefeart, that's interesting from a music production point of view; particularly the lower harmonics and intermodulation.
I don't know how much of that will apply though to CD replay since the audio mixing is already done.
A few years ago I had a play around with some dCS gear. They're pretty-much at the top of the tree in terms of digital signal processing for audio. dCS is a British company founded in Cambridge in the early 90s. It started out to build very high quality digital converters for military applications, but the tech they developed had wider applications. One of those was for audio.
The dealer I was visiting had the top-of-the-range Scarlatti CD transport (£25,000) and DAC (£20,000) and Master Clock (£10,000). To my ears the transport and DAC combo already sounded epic. However, to read the reviews wax lyrical about the effect of the Master Clock you'd expect an almost night-to-day transformation in the sound again. I tried it and I couldn't tell the difference. That's not the same as saying it made no difference. It's just that I'd reached the limit of what I could distinguish in the difference it made. You can read more about the dCS gear here: https://www.hifiplus.com/articles/dcs-vivaldi-upsampler-and-master-clock-part-2-hi-fi-plus/?page=3
That's kind of the point with any gear.
Some of the most enjoyable gear I've heard hasn't been high-end at all. A good example is the contrast between a full Genelec 5.1 active speaker package + REL sub driven by some or other high-end SACD transport and a Meridian pre-amp versus a Naim Nait 3 and a pair of Rega Alya speakers with a Pioneer Laserdisc player as the source.
The Genelec system belonged to one of my bosses. He played me the Star Trek TNG theme which was a big orchestral piece. It was impressive in its dynamics and clarity and scale and very bloody loud. He loved it, but it left me cold. The humble LD player with the Pink Floyd Pulse concert through the stereo amp and two speakers was the one that made me tap my toes and want to hear more.
This thread started out because the OP bought a tonne of gear based it seems mostly on other people's advice. I've made that mistake myself too in the past. Do the short list thing, read up, but most important is to trust your own gut reaction. If what you're hearing doesn't make you want to tear through your music collection looking for tracks that you've just got to hear on this new gear then it hasn't hit the mark.
I don't know how much of that will apply though to CD replay since the audio mixing is already done.
A few years ago I had a play around with some dCS gear. They're pretty-much at the top of the tree in terms of digital signal processing for audio. dCS is a British company founded in Cambridge in the early 90s. It started out to build very high quality digital converters for military applications, but the tech they developed had wider applications. One of those was for audio.
The dealer I was visiting had the top-of-the-range Scarlatti CD transport (£25,000) and DAC (£20,000) and Master Clock (£10,000). To my ears the transport and DAC combo already sounded epic. However, to read the reviews wax lyrical about the effect of the Master Clock you'd expect an almost night-to-day transformation in the sound again. I tried it and I couldn't tell the difference. That's not the same as saying it made no difference. It's just that I'd reached the limit of what I could distinguish in the difference it made. You can read more about the dCS gear here: https://www.hifiplus.com/articles/dcs-vivaldi-upsampler-and-master-clock-part-2-hi-fi-plus/?page=3
That's kind of the point with any gear.
Some of the most enjoyable gear I've heard hasn't been high-end at all. A good example is the contrast between a full Genelec 5.1 active speaker package + REL sub driven by some or other high-end SACD transport and a Meridian pre-amp versus a Naim Nait 3 and a pair of Rega Alya speakers with a Pioneer Laserdisc player as the source.
The Genelec system belonged to one of my bosses. He played me the Star Trek TNG theme which was a big orchestral piece. It was impressive in its dynamics and clarity and scale and very bloody loud. He loved it, but it left me cold. The humble LD player with the Pink Floyd Pulse concert through the stereo amp and two speakers was the one that made me tap my toes and want to hear more.
This thread started out because the OP bought a tonne of gear based it seems mostly on other people's advice. I've made that mistake myself too in the past. Do the short list thing, read up, but most important is to trust your own gut reaction. If what you're hearing doesn't make you want to tear through your music collection looking for tracks that you've just got to hear on this new gear then it hasn't hit the mark.
Funnily enough I'd been reading about the dCS Vivaldi/Innuos phoenix and reclocking/master clocks. I think the costs involved are quite sobering and as you say I'd question whether I could tell any difference/improvement anyway.
It appears in reality (marketing BS aside) that it's not even clear or proven (by the many studies conducted), that the majority of people can tell the difference in a blind test between standard 16bit CD audio and HDA at any sample/bit rate. As said, you have to audition hifi equipment, conduct an A/B comparison and go with your gut. I think it'll also prove fruitful to research online/wikipedia/YouTube and reaffirm the basics, lest all the 'reviews' and marketing speak sell you on stuff that will drain your piggyback at best and at worst produce audio you don't find 'that' enjoyable.
Im off to enjoy some 'standard' definition audio, I think I'll keep away from so called reviews for a while too.
It appears in reality (marketing BS aside) that it's not even clear or proven (by the many studies conducted), that the majority of people can tell the difference in a blind test between standard 16bit CD audio and HDA at any sample/bit rate. As said, you have to audition hifi equipment, conduct an A/B comparison and go with your gut. I think it'll also prove fruitful to research online/wikipedia/YouTube and reaffirm the basics, lest all the 'reviews' and marketing speak sell you on stuff that will drain your piggyback at best and at worst produce audio you don't find 'that' enjoyable.
Im off to enjoy some 'standard' definition audio, I think I'll keep away from so called reviews for a while too.
I think people often get a little bit of info and then over analyse. Just listen, buy what you like not what the fashion is on a forum or what the salesman tells you is better, which he won’t if he’s any good.