Student support grants likely to be axed

[Amp34]

The idea is that those from disadvantaged poorer backgrounds have had enough to struggle with in their lives up until that point, thus making them work alongside their studies instead of giving them ~£270 a month extra is an unnecessary hardship. Plus, what if they can't find work? What if the work they find doesn't pay enough? Those who don't receive the grant may not have led a life of luxury, but they are deemed to have had a reasonably comfortable upbringing - therefore requiring them to work or their parents to live more economically is a reasonable compromise.

So basically because some people have had a harder start in life they should have an easier time at university?

There is zero evidence that those who receive grants go out and get wasted and have fun any more than those who do not receive them. In my experience, those who have received grants are more sensible with their money.



Depends entirely on the university. Like I said, it's not guaranteed.

I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that the grant money is spent in the same way as the money others got from working. Which at uni was a combination of accommodation, food and drink.

I'm not suggesting that people with grant money went out drinking more.

 

[MichaelAwkward]

So basically because some people have had a harder start in life they should have an easier time at university?

Yes. Otherwise there is a higher chance of them dropping out and remaining as poor as their parents.

I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that the grant money is spent in the same way as the money others got from working. Which at uni was a combination of accommodation, food and drink.

I'm not suggesting that people with grant money went out drinking more.

What little is left of my grant money from the last two years is sat in my bank account waiting for when I need to support myself whilst job hunting or to go towards a deposit. The people I know who also received grants haven't splurged it all either. Spending it on accommodation and food is exactly what it's intended for, if that's how it's spent.

 

[Amp34]

That kind of attitude is the entire reason why our society is so crap compared to the rest of Europe and other parts of the world.

We pay and support people to go to university in order to a) give those from disadvantaged backgrounds a chance to move in terms of social mobility and b) to create a generation of more skilled and educated people so that taxpayers benefit in the future.

A university education benefits everyone, not just the person receiving it.

I totally agree, which is why I'd be all for a universal increase in the maintenence loan amount, so no one has to work while at uni but those that do have more spare cash. That was the original aim of the maintenence loan, unfortunately it doesn't seem to have kept up with the increasing cost of uni.

 

[Burnsy2023]

I studied full time and worked in the summer. Started with nothing, was given nothing. I didn't work during semesters. The only reason people needed help before was to fund tuition fees which were paid up front back then, now they are not. You don't need any grants to help you.

I can only speak from experience but these grants were really important to me when I was at Uni. I had no support from any family whatsoever and had to pay for absolutely everything - this money kept me afloat and allowed me to concentrate on my studies.

For reference I worked throughout my 1st and 2nd years but saved for the third as I would have struggled to work and complete all the work in the last year.

It makes me laugh that many people say that we should stop all the immigration but then also state that we shouldn't be supporting young people to get the skills that the economy needs.

 

[delta0]

How is it easy to get by on £130 a month? That's less than Job Seekers Allowance.

Firstly it is over £5500 last time I looked for the academic year which is roughly 8-9 months. If you want to top it up with more then a job over the summer and if needed Christmas will give you some more (£1k a month easy). I did it without any extra cash and I didn't struggle.

 

[delta0]

I can only speak from experience but these grants were really important to me when I was at Uni. I had no support from any family whatsoever and had to everything - this money kept me afloat and allowed me to concentrate on my studies.

For reference I worked throughout my 1st and 2nd years but saved for the third as I would have struggled to work and complete all the work in the last year.

It makes me laugh that many people say that we should stop all the immigration but then also state that we shouldn't be supporting young people to get the skills that the economy needs.

Same for me. I received nothing and worked in the first two years to cover me off for the final year.

 

[Amp34]

How is it easy to get by on £130 a month? That's less than Job Seekers Allowance.

What are you spending it on? It's enough for food and some small luxuries. The rest can be paid by working during the summer.

The biggest issue that isn't being touched by the grants argument is the fact that accomodation costs at many universities are higher than the maintenence loan. That said you can do what I did and stay in a student house the entire time, it's significantly cheaper than halls.

 

[MichaelAwkward]

Firstly it is over £5500 last time I looked for the academic year which is roughly 8-9 months. If you want to top it up with more then a job over the summer and if needed Christmas will give you some more (£1k a month easy). I did it without any extra cash and I didn't struggle.

For the 2015/16 academic year it is £5740.

Typically, a bedroom in a student house on a 12 month contract (not including bills) is between £350-400 a month. That leaves around £1000-1500 for food, bills, study materials, travel to and from university, etc. It's not easy to manage without a grant, if your parents are unable to contribute to any of those outgoings. If you choose to stay in halls in the first year, you'll probably have even less to manage on.

As for what I spend:

Roughly £30 a week on food (and that's hardly being extravagant), bills are £8 a week currently, my phone costs £10 a month, and on a number of occasions I've had to pay extra towards gas/electricity.

 

[Amp34]

Yes. Otherwise there is a higher chance of them dropping out and remaining as poor as their parents.



What little is left of my grant money from the last two years is sat in my bank account waiting for when I need to support myself whilst job hunting or to go towards a deposit. The people I know who also received grants haven't splurged it all either. Spending it on accommodation and food is exactly what it's intended for, if that's how it's spent.

Well done, that doesn't mean everyone that got grants did the same.

Hire missing the point again though. What I'm saying is grants were spent on the same stuff wages were and maintenence loans were spent on. People on grants are (generally) not some kind of mythical teenager that only used it for accommodation, books and food, they are normal teenagers...

Edit: grants are a fairly new thing aren't they? I used to get the full (means tested) loan. Is that not available any more?

 

[MichaelAwkward]

Well done, that doesn't mean everyone that got grants did the same.

Hire missing the point again though. What I'm saying is grants were spent on the same stuff wages were and maintenence loans were spent on. People on grants are (generally) not some kind of mythical teenager that only used it for accommodation, books and food, they are normal teenagers...

Which is exactly my point about making their lives easier at university, so they can be like every other teenager and not be pressured by money troubles to the point that they drop out due to financial difficulty, stress, depression, etc. You have to understand that those who receive the full grant amount are typically from backgrounds where there is no safety net whatsoever should things get tight.

I've only managed to save part of my grant by being incredibly frugal, not drinking, not going home much, etc. People who get grants aren't living a life of luxury.

 

[Burnsy2023]

Not if that comes with a cost to the tax payer. The talented and motivated will always succeed in life, in spite of any obstacles.

This is a commonly held and also a ridiculously ignorant view.

You hear people from wealthy backgrounds say that they built up a business from nothing. That is rarely true. Regardless of actual tangible financial investment, people get a lot from their parents such as work ethic, a culture of taking risk (because they can afford it), personal connections and generally a high quality early education.

Talented and motivated people have a whole host of reasons why they may never achieve - chronic illness, lack of education and opportunity being some. You may retort that everyone can get a high quality education in this country but again it's not as simple as that. If you're in a household where your parents are abusive, it's going to be difficult to concentrate on studies and this is on top of all the social and cultural norms that children are learning which are toxic and counter productive.

When you see what context some children grow up in like I have, you'll realise how simplistic that view is.

 

[robgmun]

If things couldn't get any worse for students so far. The poorer in society are getting shafted further.



Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33103878

Fair play to Nick Clegg for stopping that going through, shame he isn't there to try and stop it again. I fear this will go through with nobody to reign in David Cameron's attack on the poor. When fees went up to £9,000 it actually ended up costing the tax payer more! Shows what these conservative clowns are capable (or incapable) of doing.

Opinions?

I'm surprised this existed, i thought all grants were abolished years ago

 

[Burnsy2023]

Which is exactly my point about making their lives easier at university, so they can be like every other teenager and not be pressured by money troubles to the point that they drop out due to financial difficulty, stress, depression, etc. You have to understand that those who receive the full grant amount are typically from backgrounds where there is no safety net whatsoever should things get tight.

I've only managed to save part of my grant by being incredibly frugal, not drinking, not going home much, etc. People who get grants aren't living a life of luxury.

Indeed, university is also about making well rounded people which is difficult when you're working all the time.

Personally, I'm happy that my taxes are going to help people from disadvantaged backgrounds achieve a good higher education.

 

[George Hincapie]

That kind of attitude is the entire reason why our society is so crap compared to the rest of Europe and other parts of the world.

We pay and support people to go to university in order to a) give those from disadvantaged backgrounds a chance to move in terms of social mobility and b) to create a generation of more skilled and educated people so that taxpayers benefit in the future.

A university education benefits everyone, not just the person receiving it.

A degree is not required to promote social mobility or to create more skilled and educated members of society. It's entirely possible for someone to achieve all of those things without ever stepping foot in a Uni; or in fact doing anything other than GCSEs.

 

[Burnsy2023]

You are talking nonsense. A degree is not required to promote social mobility or to create more skilled and educated members of society. It's entirely possible for someone to achieve all of those things without ever stepping foot in a Uni; or in fact doing anything other than GCSEs.

Whilst it's not required, it is a very good tool at doing all of those things especially when you look at the opportunities graduate programmes offer. Degrees promote social mobility, I'm amazed that you're trying to argue otherwise.

 

[Tunney]

Grants for the poorest students should be considered as an investment. Educated workers pay more tax and increase GDP.

 

[MichaelAwkward]

A degree is not required to promote social mobility or to create more skilled and educated members of society. It's entirely possible for someone to achieve all of those things without ever stepping foot in a Uni; or in fact doing anything other than GCSEs.

Have you tried applying for basically any job recently? Degrees are increasingly a requirement for even entry level jobs in most sectors. Whilst it is possible to move socially without going to uni, it's rare and reliant on luck (right time, right place, right people) more than anything else.

 

[cheesyboy]

Indeed, university is also about making well rounded people which is difficult when you're working all the time.

Completely correct. Those suggesting you can "manage" on £100/month or whatever are advocating that poor students have to continue (as they have for the rest of their lives) to be cut off from the social capital of joining in with the activities, networks, and experiences of their peers - the people they will need to be competing for jobs with.

It's another brake on their prospects.

 

[George Hincapie]

Have you tried applying for basically any job recently? Degrees are increasingly a requirement for even entry level jobs in most sectors.

I have a GCSE level education only. I was raised in a very poor area of the North East, leaving at 16 to join the Army (Royal Military Police). I served 14 years, left in 2004. I worked in the Civil Service for 5 years before moving to my current employer in Canary Wharf. My current position in life is a million miles away from where I started, but there's no reason anyone else couldn't do the same. There's nothing special about me, I've just worked hard.

Whilst it is possible to move socially without going to uni, it's rare and reliant on luck (right time, right place, right people) more than anything else.

I think this is true in life generally, regardless of the level of education you might have.

 

[MichaelAwkward]

I have a GCSE level education only. I was raised in a very poor area of the North East, leaving at 16 to join the Army (Royal Military Police). I served 14 years, left in 2004. I worked in the Civil Service for 5 years before moving to my current employer in Canary Wharf. My current position in life is a million miles away from where I started, but there's no reason anyone else couldn't do the same. There's nothing special about me, I've just worked hard.



I think this is true in life generally, regardless of the level of education you might have.

The opportunities you had do not exist anymore (apart from the armed forces) without a degree and even then it's extremely competitive.