Suarez

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The bit about Suarez's claim that he did not intend to wind Evra up by saying "negro", obviously. :confused: While Suarez does not say outright that he said it to wind him up, that's what his testimony amounted to.

lol.

I've not said that based on the evidence Suarez didn't intend to wind Evra up when saying negro. In fact, read back through the thread and you'll see that I claimed that it was fair to say that he probably did.

I've said that Suarez hasn't admitted to winding Evra up by calling him negro, which DM claimed he did.

I'll say it again, the (lack of) reading ability of some people on this forum is incredible.
 
Ill be honest im not going to read all the report i know and have read via here what we all know he said the word Negro, Now yes it maybe be fine in his culture but he has said it in England and directed it towards Evra so something was bound to happen regardless.

Do i think he is a racist no, He said something he maybe says all the time were he is from or to his team mates (On the national side) etc here though he has to realise its not the same.

Still support him regardless he plays for LFC and does a job on the pitch all that matters
 
lol.

I've not said that based on the evidence Suarez didn't intend to wind Evra up when saying negro. In fact, read back through the thread and you'll see that I claimed that it was fair to say that he probably did.

I've said that Suarez hasn't admitted to winding Evra up by calling him negro, which DM claimed he did.

I'll say it again, the (lack of) reading ability of some people on this forum is incredible.

I apologise, I don't remember every post in this thread but I admit I misunderstood what you were saying there. It's made all the more daft by the fact I think we largely agree with each other, so don't get emotional Baz, to this point you've been the most sensible Liverpool fan in this thread. :D
 
With that in mind, and I'm not trying to wind you up, do you think Liverpool and Dalglish should retract or revise the statements they made following the announcement of the verdict?
 
The statement wasn't made by Dalglish so no. The release of the report doesn't tell Liverpool anything they didn't know regarding the facts and evidence of the case so if they firmly believed Suarez's version of events to begin with then I see no reason why they'd now change that view.
 
But these aspects of the statement made by Liverpool are patently untrue:

"We find it extraordinary that Luis can be found guilty on the word of Patrice Evra alone when no one else on the field of play – including Evra's own Manchester United team-mates and all the match officials – heard the alleged conversation between the two players in a crowded Kop goalmouth while a corner kick was about to be taken.

Suarez was not found guilty on Evra's word alone, as the report demonstrates.

"LFC considers racism in any form to be unacceptable – without compromise. It is our strong held belief, having gone over the facts of the case, that Luis Suarez did not commit any racist act. It is also our opinion that the accusation by this particular player was not credible – certainly no more credible than his prior unfounded accusations.

Evra has made no "prior unfounded accusations" and the independent panel then found his evidence to be more credible than Suarez's.

"We would also like to know when the FA intend to charge Patrice Evra with making abusive remarks to an opponent after he admitted himself in his evidence to insulting Luis Suarez in Spanish in the most objectionable of terms. Luis, to his credit, actually told the FA he had not heard the insult. "

The report makes clear that Evra did not insult Suarez when he said "concha de tu hermana", as it was not directed at anyone in particular.
 
But these aspects of the statement made by Liverpool are patently untrue:



Suarez was not found guilty on Evra's word alone, as the report demonstrates.



Evra has made no "prior unfounded accusations" and the independent panel then found his evidence to be more credible than Suarez's.



The report makes clear that Evra did not insult Suarez when he said "concha de tu hermana", as it was not directed at anyone in particular.
It was a case of one man's word against anothers though and they determined who to believe based on the credibility of each persons testimony.

Evra has made unfounded accusations in the past - during the Chelsea groundsmen incident, although the accusations were not in relation to the racism aspect of the case.

And what the panel found and what Liverpool believe in regards to the Evra insult are not necessarily the same thing. Liverpool obviously believe Evra used that term as an insult.
 
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It was a case of one man's word against anothers though and they determined who to believe based on the credibility of each persons testimony.

That's not what Liverpool's lawyer seems to think:

215. It was accepted by both Mr Greaney and Mr McCormick in closing submissions that this is not simply a case of one person's word against another.

Liverpool knew that this had been said: what they wrote in their official statement is totally fabricated.

With regards to the Chelsea groundsman incident, Evra was found to be unreliable then. But, just as the inquiry didn't consider Suarez's previous disciplinary record, this unrelated incident should have no bearing on this case. Liverpool also can't call in to question the judgement of this independent panel and the validity of their findings, then use the evidence of another independent panel as fact.

Also, I'm inclined to believe an independent panel with two expert witnesses than what either United or Liverpool have to say on the Evra insult.
 
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Liverpool's Statement said:
It is our strong-held belief, having gone over the facts of the case, that Luis Suárez did not commit any racist act. It is also our opinion that the accusation by this particular player was not credible

FA Findings said:
'The position, therefore, is as follows. Mr Suarez spoke in Spanish to Mr Comolli soon after the game about this serious allegation. Mr Suarez also spoke in Dutch to Mr Kuyt. Both Mr Comolli and Mr Kuyt understood Mr Suarez to have told them that when he spoke to Mr Evra he said words which translate into English as, "Because you are black". According to Mr Suarez, Mr Comolli misheard what Mr Suarez said in Spanish, and Mr Kuyt misheard what Mr Suarez said in Dutch'

There are a number of other surprising aspects to what Mr Dalglish and Mr Comolli told the referee. We accept that the referee's report accurately records what they told him. Its accuracy was not challenged by Mr Suarez.

Mr Dalglish told the referee that Mr Suarez responded with "you are black" having first been taunted with "you are South American".

So Liverpool say in their statement that Suarez said nothing racist despite Comolli, Kuyt and Dalglish all stating to the referee that Saurez did indeed use a phrase which translates to "Because you are black". Whether all 3 feel Saurez was provoked into saying that is irrelevant he did ultimately commit a racist act something Liverpool denied.

Like I said Liverpool have come out of this worse than anyone but lets be honest how can they possibly retract anything they said in their initial statement without admitting that they reacted completely incorrectly? They'd effectively be issuing a public apology by retracting anything which I cant see happening.
 
Sorry, what? I know Suarez has admitted to saying Negro, I've said as much countless times in this thread.

I'm commenting on DM's claim that Suarez has admitted to calling Evra Negro several times and that he later admits that he called him Negro to wind him up. Neither claim are included in the report.

The (lack of) reading ability of some people on this forum is incredible.

Who cares if he called him a negro once or a thousand times?

Who cares if it was meant in a 'friendly' way or not. Pity Suarez for being so ignorant. He's playing in the ENGLISH premier league. Be as subjective as you want but you don't go up to a black person and say LOL YOU ALRIGHT MATE LOL NEGRO!

I appreciate you're doing your best to put forward a well structured and justified argument but seriously Baz, you're coming across as a massively biased Liverpool fan.

What do you think would be fair punishment? Because to me, racism is racism, saying negro is racist regardless of how many times it was said. Once this is evident, he's guilty. I'm assuming you're just fighting his corner with regards to him being 'less guilty' than what he's been pictured as?

P.s lol at all the pseudo lawyers in this thread :D
 
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Having gone through it a second time ... It's still a joke of a report.
Firstly no where does Suarez statement change, every event is listed clear in his opening statement.
The incident in question ( which they say changed ) is the pinch.
Suarez says in his statement it's just 'sticking up for himself' , so for the panel to decide he admitted after video evidence that it's not 'nice' suggests Suarez stated previously that it was .. And he never said that.

On top of that, when the panel state that in SAmerican regions, pinching ones own arm is a way of describing ones skin colour. So with no history of this act being used on others , how they can conclude its possibly an attempt to call out Evras skin colour is beyond me.

Regarding the inconsistencies in Suarez vs kuyt and DC, Suarez said to these that what he said translates in English to 'you are black' . The language expert even concluded that in Spanish context it's not inherently racist, although they chose to believe it occurred multiple times, thus changing the context to something more sinister.
There is no evidence that he said this more then the once Suarez admitted to other then the testimony of SAF and Evra. An LFC employee overheard SAF saying Suarez used the word 5 times, meaning it must have come from Evra. SAF said the 5 times thing himself also. Evra in France said it happened 'at least ten times' , a huge inconsistency itself, and tried to back out of this with the excuse " it's a French thing ".
The panel asked Suarez if he told Kuyt and Dc he called evra out as being 'black' , under the context of how Suarez used the sentence / word, Suarez is right to say they must have misheared, as what he told them is it translates in English as X, not that he called him Y.

The final inconsistency is the use of a word whic Suarez defence only used after hearing the panel use it. Hardly the biggest crime is it? Considering it didn't actually change what Suarez was saying, although the panel concluded it was an attempt to change his statement.

Regarding not using Evras apparent unreliability ( Chelsea, Finnan) , the panel said that they chose to ignore this for one reason only, because LFC chose not to use it in their defence. Quite poor IMO, and the panels statement that Evra wouldnt try to damage a fellow professionals status in the game, huge assumption to make considering the Finnan incident.

Regarding what Kuyt accused Evra of saying to Suarez and the ref, the ref didn't hear, so this is thrown out. And to say Kuyt must have misheard what Evra said to Suarez ( re: his sister) .. How can they come to this conclusion? The whole trial is based on one word against another so the only reason to throw this out is they believe Kuyt to be a flawed witness because he is a team mate of Suarez. This is common in criminal courts, but the panel failed to apply the same assumptions regarding other peoples statements, seems like selective acceptance to me.

There's more, but I'm hung over so I'll stop here.
 
Having gone through it a second time ... It's still a joke of a report.
Firstly no where does Suarez statement change, every event is listed clear in his opening statement.
The incident in question ( which they say changed ) is the pinch.
Suarez says in his statement it's just 'sticking up for himself' , so for the panel to decide he admitted after video evidence that it's not 'nice' suggests Suarez stated previously that it was .. And he never said that.

On top of that, when the panel state that in SAmerican regions, pinching ones own arm is a way of describing ones skin colour. So with no history of this act being used on others , how they can conclude its possibly an attempt to call out Evras skin colour is beyond me.

Regarding the inconsistencies in Suarez vs kuyt and DC, Suarez said to these that what he said translates in English to 'you are black' . The language expert even concluded that in Spanish context it's not inherently racist, although they chose to believe it occurred multiple times, thus changing the context to something more sinister.
There is no evidence that he said this more then the once Suarez admitted to other then the testimony of SAF and Evra. An LFC employee overheard SAF saying Suarez used the word 5 times, meaning it must have come from Evra. SAF said the 5 times thing himself also. Evra in France said it happened 'at least ten times' , a huge inconsistency itself, and tried to back out of this with the excuse " it's a French thing ".
The panel asked Suarez if he told Kuyt and Dc he called evra out as being 'black' , under the context of how Suarez used the sentence / word, Suarez is right to say they must have misheared, as what he told them is it translates in English as X, not that he called him Y.

The final inconsistency is the use of a word whic Suarez defence only used after hearing the panel use it. Hardly the biggest crime is it? Considering it didn't actually change what Suarez was saying, although the panel concluded it was an attempt to change his statement.

Regarding not using Evras apparent unreliability ( Chelsea, Finnan) , the panel said that they chose to ignore this for one reason only, because LFC chose not to use it in their defence. Quite poor IMO, and the panels statement that Evra wouldnt try to damage a fellow professionals status in the game, huge assumption to make considering the Finnan incident.

Regarding what Kuyt accused Evra of saying to Suarez and the ref, the ref didn't hear, so this is thrown out. And to say Kuyt must have misheard what Evra said to Suarez ( re: his sister) .. How can they come to this conclusion? The whole trial is based on one word against another so the only reason to throw this out is they believe Kuyt to be a flawed witness because he is a team mate of Suarez. This is common in criminal courts, but the panel failed to apply the same assumptions regarding other peoples statements, seems like selective acceptance to me.

There's more, but I'm hung over so I'll stop here.

Liverpool fan in interpreting what he wants from an independent report shocker.
 
Liverpool fan expecting a report damning someone as being Racist to be based on more then 39 instances of 'Probably' or 17 instances of 'on balance', shocker.
Unfortunately the FA don't work like a criminal court so the onus was on the defendant to prove his innocence rather than accuser to prove his guilt. It's effectively guilty until proven innocent and the FA doubted his version of events so charged him :(

Given the nature of the case it's a pretty scandalous method to decide the fate of a player but that's how the FA work and we along with other clubs agree with.
 
Video evidence - the only evidence Liverpool fans will acknowledge (except of course when it involves Steven Gerrard :p).

Sorry for the trolling, just seems pointless to keep going back and forth over such minute details. He's said some racist stuff and now he's been punished for it, unfortunately none of us were there when the evidence was given so a report (no matter how detailed) on how the decision was reached is never going to cut it for some people.

To be fair it does feel like they're making an example of him to an extent, if he'd stayed away from saying something so silly he wouldn't have this problem. They've set a precedent now and have to keep it up, otherwise Liverpool will be able to make a serious case for being hard done by.
 
Unfortunately the FA don't work like a criminal court so the onus was on the defendant to prove his innocence rather than accuser to prove his guilt. It's effectively guilty until proven innocent and the FA doubted his version of events so charged him :(

Given the nature of the case it's a pretty scandalous method to decide the fate of a player but that's how the FA work and we along with other clubs agree with.

hang on, that's not correct. The onus was on the FA to prove their case. Obviously it was helped by Suarez's evidence as well but just because a different standard of evidence was required doesn't mean that the onus wasn't on the accuser.
 
As a liverpool fan ive come to the conslusion that the club should not appeal. The longer it goes the more it will damage the club image. The report does say that they don't believe suarez is a racist. So just cut the loses and inform the fa that they will not appeal the ban after the city game.
 
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