Its not a true sub channel its down to the discretion of the processor, I'd much prefer good quality front speakers to take care of the bass than have a sub, but thats just my preference at least I'd know it wasn't relying on processor to decide what goes where. Going by the spec's if you send the LFE channel to a sub and set your sub to handle everything below 80hz your missing out on 40hz as the LFE runs from 3 - 120hz.
Sub Neccesary?
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BF-Bert said:
Are you talking about theory over practise? In theory bass management is bad to which I agree that CD's don't require or should have BM to, unless you use a sat system, but we're not talking about applying bass managment from CD's, discrete left and right. Multi-channel is designed from the ground up with bass mangagment in mind. As long as the processor does a good job don't just throw the notion that BM is bad.
You said in your second paragraph the subwoofer is getting 3-120hz and the LFE only, it is therefore a subwoofer channel, you're not missing anything as the other channels are receiving full-range from their own channels. Of course unless all of your others are full-range (JM Grand Utopias) you will unlikely set them to large, at least not when watching action films, and if you room is perfect conditions for 5 or 7 speakers plus LFE reproducing bass.
I have the option to send full-range LFE to the subwoofer, or filtered regardless of other speaker crossover settings, so nothing is being thrown away. Also have individual speaker crossover settings. Some are more advanced in that they offer 10hz increments per speaker, or have auto calibration/bass test per speaker. But everything is set to the same crossover. 80hz small.
My view is this - not that its worth 2p lol but here goes:
If you have space for a decent pair of floor standers then a sub may not be necessary - if however you can only fit bookshelf style then a decent sub can go a long way.
a £300 REL sub + £200 bookshelf speakers will sound a lot better than any £500 bookshelfs you care to mention (and to My mind - or ears) REL are amongst the best subs reasonable money can buy.
Decent bi- wired / bi-amped floor standers will easily equal this and in some caes better it but with more floor standing space required
but saying that I would buy a decent sub just to hear that wonderful rumble as the Empire 's star cruiser comes over your head in the first few seconds of Star Wars ( A New Hope if you insist lol)
At the moment I have 4* Acoustic Energy bookshelf speakers, 1* AE centre speaker and an REL Storm all attached to a Denon 1906 which I think is a pretty decent setup for reasonable money - but you can certainly do better if buying now.
If you have space for a decent pair of floor standers then a sub may not be necessary - if however you can only fit bookshelf style then a decent sub can go a long way.
a £300 REL sub + £200 bookshelf speakers will sound a lot better than any £500 bookshelfs you care to mention (and to My mind - or ears) REL are amongst the best subs reasonable money can buy.
Decent bi- wired / bi-amped floor standers will easily equal this and in some caes better it but with more floor standing space required
but saying that I would buy a decent sub just to hear that wonderful rumble as the Empire 's star cruiser comes over your head in the first few seconds of Star Wars ( A New Hope if you insist lol)
At the moment I have 4* Acoustic Energy bookshelf speakers, 1* AE centre speaker and an REL Storm all attached to a Denon 1906 which I think is a pretty decent setup for reasonable money - but you can certainly do better if buying now.
Squiffy,
I'm a bit confused over this set to small you claim is a must, the other day we discussed and you claimed if set to large the mains would distort, as they couldn't handle the bass in a movie. Is this the case with your set-up ? if it is to be a High End Meridian class system I find it very surprising
For sure to get the full impact in Star Wars fly over a sub is need to shake the room. Except when I had Keltik speakers they out do most subs !!!
Mine does this fine when mains set to large, and then supplemented up to 50Hz with my Sub. No distortion.....
I don't give any weight to something having THX written on it, just means some of the budget went to paying the royalties.
Surely most multi channel music was expanded from original 2 channel anyway ?? How much was written and composed in multi channel ? I've yet to sit in the middle of a band during a concert. LOL
I'm a bit confused over this set to small you claim is a must, the other day we discussed and you claimed if set to large the mains would distort, as they couldn't handle the bass in a movie. Is this the case with your set-up ? if it is to be a High End Meridian class system I find it very surprising
For sure to get the full impact in Star Wars fly over a sub is need to shake the room. Except when I had Keltik speakers they out do most subs !!!
Mine does this fine when mains set to large, and then supplemented up to 50Hz with my Sub. No distortion.....
I don't give any weight to something having THX written on it, just means some of the budget went to paying the royalties.
Surely most multi channel music was expanded from original 2 channel anyway ?? How much was written and composed in multi channel ? I've yet to sit in the middle of a band during a concert. LOL
9designs2 said:
Only for a few action scenes in a few certain movies. 99.9% of the time they're fine set to large. Generanlly it still sounds better on small 80hz. Unfortuantly films are recorded so hot on the bass channel it can overload bass drivers, that's why I mentioned Titan AE, DTS version. Even Starship Troopers "Whiskey Outpost" has a lot of low bass that'll give problems to floorstanders. LOTR ring drop also. When you watch a film for the first time you don't when or how loud a scene is going to be. I find the THX subwoofer peak protect useful with lesser subs, I wish all low end av amplifers have this feature. How many times have I seen/heard subs parping away with nothing to protect maximum output.
The only thing I can suggest is to borrow a top end sub, something around £2000-£3000. Change all crossovers to small 80hz, calibrate. Bypass the subs own crossover. Now watch a few action clips and see which is better. You should find it plays cleaner, clearer with less boom, and the bass that is present is not distorting bass cones, also have less room boom, and floorboard flexing bass when it's called for.
Make sure all speaker distances are correct also (this not only adjust delay, but phase as well)
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You can see some details on my sub in this recent thread
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17621527
I always tend to have the volume set to same point for films, as I know from experience what volume the wife will let me get away with... (she likes it anyway). The sub is miles away from max extension/limit, the gain is hardly cracked open to give enough "thump".... I over spec'd everything for the size of room/volume required. It's fed with the 0.1 channel from the processor.
To buy these parts, the driver was £260, amp module about £300 I think. So it's not a "cheap" sub. If it were a retail design.... easily 2K I would have said.
Feeding up to 80Hz + roll off into a sub, surely starts to give away some positional cues ?
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17621527
I always tend to have the volume set to same point for films, as I know from experience what volume the wife will let me get away with...
(she likes it anyway). The sub is miles away from max extension/limit, the gain is hardly cracked open to give enough "thump".... I over spec'd everything for the size of room/volume required. It's fed with the 0.1 channel from the processor. To buy these parts, the driver was £260, amp module about £300 I think. So it's not a "cheap" sub. If it were a retail design.... easily 2K I would have said.
Feeding up to 80Hz + roll off into a sub, surely starts to give away some positional cues ?
No I don't feel the sub is intruding over the other speakers, don't think "god that sub sticks out over the others" My previous lower quality subwoofer did though, mainly because it struggled and brought attention to itself.
oh if you have the volume always at a set level ie -25dB it doesn't mean the levels will be the same, some films are mastered hotter than others. Toy Story I/II for example..
That's a nice sub though
oh if you have the volume always at a set level ie -25dB it doesn't mean the levels will be the same, some films are mastered hotter than others. Toy Story I/II for example..
That's a nice sub though
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9designs2 said:
i cant see how it couldn't, i really don't. not unless the sub is actively filtering in that region anyway, that's possible.
It's not so much about the sub sticking out as it is about the balance of the sound field. You start to get the problem where by sounds at certain frequencies will appear to eminate from certain parts of the room, regardless of where they are supposed to be. Its far to obvious in my room for example.
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squiffy said:No I don't feel the sub is intruding over the other speakers, don't think "god that sub sticks out over the others" My previous lower quality subwoofer did though, mainly because it struggled and brought attention to itself.
oh if you have the volume always at a set level ie -25dB it doesn't mean the levels will be the same, some films are mastered hotter than others. Toy Story I/II for example..
That's a nice sub though
I was always "taught" to set the system up within its self IE the sub output is matched to the output of the mains so a "seamless" output is achieved, and the correct balance is set for the room acoustics.
I do tend to do this on music to get the best blend, using Stereo + Sub mode on the 5103 Processor/pre-amp. That's my reference setting, I know from experience I can run the sub with a touch more gain in films without over driving the room.
I certainly don't try and adjust for every film, if some are low... I assume that's how they wanted it.... But on the remote for the 5103 I can control the sub volume independently, it has nominal "0" position, then +/- 5 (linear units I guess) so it's easy to tweak for a bit extra boost with out spoiling the set up.
Generally it's set so that you don't always no it's switched on, I'm a believer of sub should be able to fall silent, and kick in when required. Something that would not happen at 80Hz.
There's no way a 10 or 12inch cone is going to have the speed and transient response/dynamics of the smaller main drive units that can do this frequency and lower.
my setup is m&k S-150 for L/C/R, m&k C29's for surrounds. Its setup so the sub is pretty much seamless.
You really cant tell where the sub starts & the monitors take over. Setup with an SPL meter & frequency sweeps from all the speakers, 80hz crossover on the processor which is what the monitors are designed for.
I also use a BFD to tame some nasty peaks caused by my room, thats one of the best investments you can make to get decent performance from a sub, either sort out the room accoustics or cheat & get a BFD or sms-1 to take out the peaks, takes all the boominess out of the sound & just leaves the trouser flapping air pressure behind
a well setup sub really should not be very noticible most of the time, a lot of people who have watched films on mine have complained my sub is too quiet compared to theirs to begin with... I then watch & smile as a section of film with real LFE kicks in, the look of terror on their faces is kinda funny (cannon fire in master & commander is almost heart stopping at times, it flexes my bloomin door). When I listen to most peoples setup all I hear is booming & lots of distortion..
Done properly a sub (or 2 )can be a real compliment to a home theatre, but not too many are done properly.
As for dumping it all & getting a good set of stereo speakers, I can see the argument for this but I personally feel I have mine setup pretty damm spot on & really couldn't live without the surround stage any more (again, most surround setups I hear are pretty damm poor so I can see why good stereo can be a preffered option)
You really cant tell where the sub starts & the monitors take over. Setup with an SPL meter & frequency sweeps from all the speakers, 80hz crossover on the processor which is what the monitors are designed for.
I also use a BFD to tame some nasty peaks caused by my room, thats one of the best investments you can make to get decent performance from a sub, either sort out the room accoustics or cheat & get a BFD or sms-1 to take out the peaks, takes all the boominess out of the sound & just leaves the trouser flapping air pressure behind
a well setup sub really should not be very noticible most of the time, a lot of people who have watched films on mine have complained my sub is too quiet compared to theirs to begin with... I then watch & smile as a section of film with real LFE kicks in, the look of terror on their faces is kinda funny (cannon fire in master & commander is almost heart stopping at times, it flexes my bloomin door). When I listen to most peoples setup all I hear is booming & lots of distortion..
Done properly a sub (or 2 )can be a real compliment to a home theatre, but not too many are done properly.
As for dumping it all & getting a good set of stereo speakers, I can see the argument for this but I personally feel I have mine setup pretty damm spot on & really couldn't live without the surround stage any more (again, most surround setups I hear are pretty damm poor so I can see why good stereo can be a preffered option)