Surge Protector Help

[westom]

The biggest problems with surges seem to arise when power is returned after an outage, I don't know why. The area also seems to suffer from poor quality power to a lot of houses. By this, I mean the AC is not a very pure sine wave, but suffers distortions that cause things like PCs to become unstable as the power supplies (typically cheaper ones) try to correct this.

If a computer shop has electrically informed techs, then it has an oscilloscope. View outputs from UPS when in battery backup mode. Typically square waves (maybe 400 volts) sometimes with 500 volt spikes. That is called 240 volts? Yes, Because square waves are a sum of sine waves, then the UPS manufacturer can claim it is a sine wave output.

If badly distorted power causes damage, then damage is even worse from a UPS. Why do UPSes output such dirty power? Because that square wave is ideal electricity to electronics. Potentially harmful to power strip protectors and small electric motors (UPS says to not plug a power strip into its output). But perfectly ideal for electronics ... because electronics must be that robust.

Power restoration causes damage only when speculation automatically becomes fact. For example, power is lost due to a destructive surges. Then when power is restored, well the appliance was damaged long ago. So wild speculation blames power restoration rather than the surge that causes power loss.

If that neighborhood is suffering damage, then certainly a 'whole house' protector was not properly earthed. Effective surge protection always means nobody knew a surge existed. Even a protector remains functional. Same reason why BT wastes no money on Belkins. Why BT earths a 'whole house' protector. And why BT engineers learn why damage actually happened rather than speculate damage due to power restoration.

Typical UPS power (in battery backup mode) is so dirty that a power strip protector must not be on its output. That distorted sine wave (a square wave) is ideal electricity to all electronics. Most computer techs never learn basic electricity - do not know how dirty that UPS output can really be. Only hear and believe sales propaganda. Two 400 volt square waves is also called a modified sine wave or something equivalent.

 

[alex24]

Interesting. A lot of what you say suggests I've been passed down inaccurate knowledge based on a manufacturers claims rather than observations, and so obviously biased.

Then, why might a PC be unstable without a UPS? Perhaps that implies power drop-outs at the property? That would be indicative of poor wiring perhaps?

The problems in my area may then indicate poor earthing in local properties. I do not think there is likely to be any after-market whole house protection on most. Then the energy dissipation and damage is going to be down to how well the house is earthed at the entry point, and how far from any electronics this is.

Now you say the square wave is ideal to electronics. Do you mean easy to generate from a battery, or ideal for say, a computers PSU as an input?

 

[Admetos]

Weston I read all your posts interesting reading.

I purchased one of these recently, I did this because the house I'm living has not been rewired since the 60's, also there is a lot of small spikes from fridge etc. Also the PSU in my computer apparently has poor surge protection (OCZ).

http://whathifi.com/Review/Tacima-CS929/

I understand totally these cannot stop a lightning strike (impossible), but what's your view on protection on small spikes (fridge) etc? I have read that these small spikes over time will weaken capacitors in electrical equipment, and using above surge protection should reduce this.

Thanks
Jason

 

[Azuse05]

I have to agree with that. If you use a good psu then minor fluctuations from say turn the washing machine or fluorescent light on will do nothing to the pc, although I've had two good surge protectors die in less than a year from "everyday surges" Either use a lightening arrester or replace the fusebox with a circuit breaker next time you rewire

 

[Biz.Kid09]

Right...i still dont have a clue what your talking about....is it really necessary for me to have a keison just to protect a netbook,ps3 and a tv?

 

[westom]

Now you say the square wave is ideal to electronics. Do you mean easy to generate from a battery, or ideal for say, a computers PSU as an input?

Transistors will easily turn completely on and completely off. In those states, semiconductors consumer near zero energy - don't get hot. Any 'partially on' means those transistors dissipate significant energy. Must be much larger. Battery power wasted. Costs significantly increase. A true sine wave UPS costs five times plus more.

UPSes are made so cheaply that a replacement battery costs almost as much as the entire UPS. So a UPS output is typically very dirty – done as cheaply as possible with ‘dirtiest’ power.

Anything that any UPS would do to 'clean' power must be and is even required to be inside every power supply. Power supplies are extremely complex due to generations of refinements that do so much with so few components.

For example, what does a minimal (simplest) computer power supply do to provide DC power to a motherboard? First, a serious filter. Then rectified from AC (or square waves) to 320+ volts DC. Then filtered. Then converted from 320+ DC to hundreds of volt radio waves. Then applied to a transformer that does more filtering, Then galvanic isolation. Then output as a low voltage and filtered radio wave. Then converted to DC by more rectifiers. Then filtered again.

A typical UPS does not do that. Described was only a minimal supply found in every electronics. Anything that UPS would do (according to myths) must already exist inside all electronics. What a power supply does will be new to most here because so many never learned this stuff. Sales brochures do not discuss any of this.

Does your computer supply contain this? Yes if the computer assembler has basic electrical knowledge - which so many do not. Most computer assemblers assume a power supply will contain functions required by international standards and government regulation. Asian supply manufacturers need not meet any of those requirements. Meeting requirements is the responsibility of the computer assembler - who may not even know what those requirements are. Then the computer can be unstable due to missing functions.

So what do some do to fix a problem created by missing £10 of parts? Spend £80+ for a UPS.

Why is a computer unstable? The electrically informed first learn why before fixing it. Many instead recommend UPSes and power strips because that is what a salesman recommends.

Every computer must work normally even when incandescent lamps dim to less than 40% intensity. Computers required to be some of the most robust appliances in a building. Those numbers based on numerous sources including Intel ATX specs.

What is a UPS solving if a computer is properly designed? That UPS does one function - provide temporary power during blackouts. How is that computer powered when a typical UPS is not in battery backup mode? Computer connected directly to AC mains because that is when power is 'cleanest'.

Does not matter how poor the earth is. Critical is that all utilities be earthed to the best earthing electrode on the property. For many, that is simply a 3 meter ground rod. In some locations, ground loops or Ufer grounds are installed. Surge protection actually starts before concrete footings are poured. Anything done after that is to fix defective construction. But even one earth ground rod can be a massive earthing improvement.

Protection means every incoming utility wire inside every cable makesa less than 3 meter connection to that single point ground before entering the building.

 

[alex24]

Slight...information...overload...!

If a PSU meets the Intel ATX standard, it should be able to deal with it basically then. Could you even sell a machine with a PSU that didn't meet the necessary requirements? Surely in a company somewhere along the line this is being checked?

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but to protect your electronics, simply, every incoming wire into the building must make a <3 m connection to the installed ground (i.e. the earth rod). Any amount of internal surge protectors will make sweet f a difference.

Would said incoming wires include any antennae? How is a safe connection achieved in this case, where the object is likely going to be >3m away from the ground?

 

[Biz.Kid09]

Westom can you try and keep this on topic please.
So seeing as Belkin are turning out to be not very good..does anyone have any recommendations for a relatively cheap surge protector i can use for my ps3,tv,netbook

 

[westom]

I understand totally these cannot stop a lightning strike (impossible), but what's your view on protection on small spikes (fridge) etc? I have read that these small spikes over time will weaken capacitors in electrical equipment, and using above surge protection should reduce this.

The first purpose of a surge protector is to earth direct lightning strikes and remain functional. Again, a minimally sized 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. The typical lightning strike is 20,000 amps. A 'whole house' protector must earth a direct lightning strikes and remain functional. Then it also makes all other lesser transients irrelevant.

If your refrigerator is producing surges, then it is destroying itself. Put numbers to it. If the refrigerator is making very loud and disturbing noise on a stereo, then it might be outputting ten or so volt spikes. View what protectors completely ignore because they are not surges. Maybe 500 volts.

Now if the refrigerator is creating surges, the surge protector must be on the refrigerator. Surges are solved at the source. Same reason why 'whole house' protectors are installed. Because the source of most destructive surges are from incoming utility wires.

Appliance generated surges were a myth from plug-in manufacturers to increase sales. Even forty years ago, electronics were required to withstand less than 1000 volts spikes without damage. Today that number is even higher. Just another reason why protectors may ignore anything below 500 volts.

So, if your refrigerator is creating surges, what is the voltage spike and width? If you refrigerator is creating surges, then get it fixed inside. Otherwise the first thing destroyed by that surge is the refrigerator.

If surges from the refrigerator is destroying electronics, then you are replacing less robust dimmer switches, clock radios, and electronics timer switches often. Just another reason why the problem is fixed; why symptoms are not cured.

Washing machine, dishwasher, air conditioner, hoover, etc only create surges when myths are promoted. When trivial noise gets promoted as a surge because a speaker makes a loud sound.

Show me what that whathifi product claims to do. It has not even one number to claim anything. Nothing says anything about surge protection or noise filtering. How did Saddam have WMDs? The exact same reasons were provided.

To increase filtering from noise, simplest effective solutions start at these prices and physcial weight. View products from zerosurge, surgex, and brickwall.

 

[alex24]

Westom can you try and keep this on topic please.
So seeing as Belkin are turning out to be not very good..does anyone have any recommendations for a relatively cheap surge protector i can use for my ps3,tv,netbook

He's kind of saying you don't need one. I think.

 

[Biz.Kid09]

i have no idea tbh Alex he lost me when he did his first post.

 

[westom]

So seeing as Belkin are turning out to be not very good..does anyone have any recommendations for a relatively cheap surge protector i can use for my ps3,tv,netbook

Those appliances are some of the most robust in a building. If they need protection, then everything needs protection - including the furnace.

Every wire must be included in the solution. If any wire is not, the entire solution is compromised - ie warranty example. For example, a kid connecting an Xbox to the TV means any adjacent protection is compromised.

Effective protection means a cable TV wire also must be part of the solution where every wire gets connected to earth. Where every wire must be earthed before entering the building. Any wire not integrated in the solution means no effective protection. That is best done at the service entrance so that nobody in the home needs engineering knowledge.

There is no effective solution that does not make that short connection to earth - as the BT examples demonstrated. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No way around reality. Protection has always been about where energy dissipates. Any typically destructive surge is hunting for earth ground. Either harmlessly outside the building. Or destructively via appliances.

Computers are some of the most robust appliances in a building. Posted previously was what a power supply does. That is also why computers have massive protection. Any surge that can overwhelm that protection means everything needs one earthed 'whole house' protector. Your concern are transients that can overwhelm all appliance protection. Belkin does not provide that protection AND will not even discuss it. Which is why the less expensive solution has always been to earth one 'whole house' protector - ie from Keison. So that even direct lightning strikes result in no damage - even to the protector.

 

[westom]

i have no idea tbh Alex he lost me when he did his first post.

It is simple. Either you want to be scammed by a Belkin protector that does not even claim protection in its spec numbers. Or the Keison protector is earthed. Anything else are reasons why.

It’s not hard. The Belkin does not even claim protection in its numeric specs. The engineer with decades of design experience told you what the effective solution is that also costs much less money.

 

[Biz.Kid09]

Well a Keison is very expensive plus im in a rented place at the moment so i wouldnt be able to install it or whatever you have to do with it.

 

[westom]

Well a Keison is very expensive plus im in a rented place at the moment so i wouldnt be able to install it or whatever you have to do with it.

Ok. You have two choices. If your power company offers it, then they install a 'whole house' protector at the meter.

Or you get your landlord to install the protector that you purchase. If you are having surges, he will also appreciate protection for his appliances. It’s an easy sell with a cooperative landlord.

Or kludge a solution. Find a receptacle that is closest to the power board. Cut the power cord as short as possible on a plug-in protector that has maximum joules. A two meter cord compromises protection. If must be much less than a meter - as short as possible.

Now plug-that into the closest receptacle so that it is as close to earth as possible. It is an inferior (kludge) solution. But at least it might do something useful.

Remember that BT example? Protectors as close to earth as possible. And separated from electronics. Now find the wall receptacle on the ring that is farthest from the breaker box and that kludge protector. That is the best receptacle to power your electronics. Now the protector is less likely to contibute to appliance damage.

 

[Biz.Kid09]

i have never had a power surge...i was just going to get one for my ps3 etc just for a little protection.
All the appliances here are my own so he wont be bothered....anyways surely if something happened i just claim on the house insurance?

 

[Admetos]

Westom, thanks for response, these is the information from the protector I listed.

Product Description Operating Voltage: 220-250V ac, Max Current rating: 13A, Max Surge Protection: L-N 6500A, L-E, 4500A, N-E 4500A Max Voltage Spike Protection: 6,000 Volts, Neon Indication: None- these can inject noise into the system, Mains Cable: Shielded with Aluminium foil

Thanks
Jason

 

[westom]

Westom, thanks for response, these is the information from the protector I listed.

Where do thousands of amps go? Same current is everywhere simultaneously in a path from cloud to earthborne charges. That is how electricity works. Thousands of amps inside a building means thousands of amps are hunting for earth where?

Destructively via nearby appliances. That is the point in an IEEE brochure Adobe page 42 of 61 figure 8. Current earthed 8000 volts destructively via a nearby TV because the protector is too close to appliances and too far from earth ground:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

When conducting thousands of amps, what is the voltage? 6000 volts? What kind of protection is that? Ineffective.

Effective protection means energy is not hunting for earth destructively inside the building. Once thousands of amps are inside, then any destructive path to earth can be used.

What happens when thousands of amps are on interior wires? Now transients are induced on other bundled wires. More destructive transients. Just another problem because those currents were permitted inside the building. Damage that would exist elsewhere in the building because that protector is conducting thousands of amps through bundles of wires.

Where does it list the energy? How does its hundreds of joules make a transient of hundreds of thousands of joules just disappear? It doesn't. When it fails, then naive consumers say it sacrificed itself to save appliances. Failing during surges too small to overwhelm protection inside all appliances is why grossly undersized protectors get recommended.

What happens when a 'whole house' protector is earthed? Currents harmlessly dissipated in earth. 50,000 amps or more. An effective protector harmlessly earths direct lightning strikes. Currents not destructively inside a building. Protector remains functional. Currents that are not hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

In short, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground- which those specs will not even discuss. Where do those thousands of amp go? Where is the energy dissipated? Damning questions only possible when viewing spec numbers.

 

[westom]

Neon Indication: None- these can inject noise into the system,

Yes. And then view the numbers for that noise. So tiny that you would have difficulty measuring it. So tiny that most appliances would bury your measurements with their higher noise. That noise is an example of 'junk science' reasoning because numbers were not provided.

 

[westom]

i have never had a power surge...i was just going to get one for my ps3 etc just for a little protection.

Surges occur typically once every seven years. A number that can vary significantly even in the same town. How often does your car crash? Then why do you wear a seat belt? Same concept. The event is rare. And that destructive. Which is why the Keison is so inexpensive.

A plug-in protector adjacent to an appliance can even increase possibility of damage (without an earthed 'whole house' protector). Using no protector anywhere as a benchmark. Increases damage with the protector adjacent to the appliance. A probability that decreases as the protector moves farther from the appliance and closer to earth ground.

My friend knows someone who actually knows this stuff. A 33,000 volt wire fell on local distribution. Electric meters literally exploded 10 meters out from the mounting pan. So many with plug-in protectors had destroyed appliances and protectors. At least one had a destroyed circuit breaker. My friend's only damage was to the electric meter. Even the 'whole house' protector remained functional - as it should.

How often does a stray car hit some local distribution lines? Anoher reason for earthing a protector. Bottom line: a protector without earthing is ineffective. Or what the NIST calls "useless".

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which determines whether you should even spend the money. Without a ‘whole house’ protector (or a kludge equivalent), the plug-in protector may even contribute to appliance damage.