Surviving a point blank nuclear explosion

[olivier renault]

Hulk it up.

 

[hornetstinger]

yeah look what we've done since 1700. Steam power to sending a probe outside of the solar system, all of that in just 300 years.

 

[Participant]

My aunt's flapjack mixture.

 

[whiskycycle]

I would love to have seen seismograph readings from around the world if they had ever tested one.

They did test the big one, the Tsar Bomba, but artificially limited the yield to half strength... Was still a can't firework display apparently.

 

[Tefal]

Shaping of the force direction I guess and you could use magnetic containment (the energy requirements would be colossal).


.

or like they suggested a huge thick ablative steel/uranium plate on shock absorbers.

who cares if the explosions vaporizes 10 inches of your 100 inch thick plate.



the atomic centurian survived a nuclear detonation at 500 yards, and that was a 1950 tank

 

[Tefal]

No because E=mc^2 and force fields are fairies(they won't ever exist).

iirc nasa was looking to electromagnetic feilds to provide radiation shielding for spaceships/stations (lighter than lead/steel etc) similar to how the earts magnetic feild works but much much smaller.

but thats to protect against a few particles of solar radiation not atmospheric/kinetic stuff

 

[wolfie138]

or like they suggested a huge thick ablative steel/uranium plate on shock absorbers.

who cares if the explosions vaporizes 10 inches of your 100 inch thick plate.



the atomic centurian survived a nuclear detonation at 500 yards, and that was a 1950 tank

and it was only a 9kt yield, which is basically a firecracker compared to things they have today.

 

[johnloo]

Would it be possible, with unlimited military and civlian spending to build a vehicle that would protect it's occupants from a point blank high yield nuclear explosion? I do know certain battle tanks will protect to a certain point, from shock waves, thermal blast, kinetic and X-rays etc, but they must be at a set distance from ground zero.

yes, it would be possible now, but if you move-ability that in few hundred years.

 

[Tefal]

and it was only a 9kt yield, which is basically a firecracker compared to things they have today.

indeed.

but i think ablation will be the basis of any close survival system.

a protective bubble of your own boiled off Armour will provide a lot of thermal protection.


how much gamma does a bomb produce at the source? as with it being an inverse square law for its disipation even a small distance from the explosion will massivly reduce the radiation

 

[Orionaut]

or like they suggested a huge thick ablative steel/uranium plate on shock absorbers.

who cares if the explosions vaporizes 10 inches of your 100 inch thick plate.

That isn't quite how it worked.

The "Pusher Plate" wasn't actually intended to be particularly thick. only a 5 or 6 inches at the centre, tapering of towards the edge like a cymbal (Though it would still represent around 25% of the total mass of the space ship) . It would be sprayed with a thin layer of oil between pulses.. This was actually sufficient to protect the steel plate from the impact of the 100Km/S plasma. It was not intended to be ablated to any significant extent.

o

the atomic centurian survived a nuclear detonation at 500 yards, and that was a 1950 tank

If you remember your "Ground Zero" pictures of Hiroshima. The large concrete domed building that actually survived really quite well was directly below the blast.

A Nuclear explosion is not like a chemical one.

The process is really quite different, and even different types of Nuclear explosion are different from one another. There are two basic types and they very different from one another in terms of how the energy is liberated to the extent that one would need very different shielding solutions in order to survive depending on what you were facing. (There is a third type, but it is basically a mix of the two)

I think it would be quite possible to design a vehicle that might survive with its crew being at ground zero for a large, optimal height, Airburst. (Optimal height is where the initial Fireball just "kisses" the ground)

Surviving a close proximity ground burst or earth penetrator is a very different matter however, even if the vehicle physically survived the G forces that is would be exposed to would turn the "Contents" to mush!

 

[Tefal]

That isn't quite how it worked.

The "Pusher Plate" wasn't actually intended to be particularly thick. only a 5 or 6 inches at the centre, tapering of towards the edge like a cymbal (Though it would still represent around 25% of the total mass of the space ship) . It would be sprayed with a thin layer of oil between pulses.. This was actually sufficient to protect the steel plate from the impact of the 100Km/S plasma. It was not intended to be ablated to any significant extent.




If you remember your "Ground Zero" pictures of Hiroshima. The large concrete domed building that actually survived really quite well was directly below the blast.

A Nuclear explosion is not like a chemical one.

The process is really quite different, and even different types of Nuclear explosion are different from one another. There are two basic types and they very different from one another in terms of how the energy is liberated to the extent that one would need very different shielding solutions in order to survive depending on what you were facing. (There is a third type, but it is basically a mix of the two)

I think it would be quite possible to design a vehicle that might survive with its crew being at ground zero for a large, optimal height, Airburst. (Optimal height is where the initial Fireball just "kisses" the ground)

Surviving a close proximity ground burst or earth penetrator is a very different matter however, even if the vehicle physically survived the G forces that is would be exposed to would turn the "Contents" to mush!

hiroshima was an air burst though so significantly further away than the atomic centurion blast as you say, ground level adds all kinds of seismic problems. (maybe some kind of suspension system as chyene mountain has?) or the other option well designed seat belts/harnesses, if i rember fro mthe rocket sled tests, and early aircraft/space tests they found properly restrained human can survive very high G fior a shoirt time. (they might be unconscious but they'll live)

as for the pusher plate i didnt know it was that thin i rember reading they wanted to make it out of urainium and then when the ship arrived at its destination it could be reused as fuel for reactors.

but that ship is designed to be inspace, for most of the time which means significantly less "mass" than in atmosphere hitting it.

didnt the russians make a tank designed specifically to survive nuclear blastas and not flip etc? object something?

 

[ayeok]

How about a full immersion suit made of cockroaches?

 

[adolf hamster]

didnt the russians make a tank designed specifically to survive nuclear blastas and not flip etc? object something?

object 279.

This special purpose tank was intended to fight on cross country terrain, inaccessible to conventional tanks, acting as a heavy breakthrough tank, and if necessary withstanding even the shockwave of a nuclear explosion. It was planned as a tank of the Supreme Command Reserve.

Link

 

[Tefal]

cool

funcky casting for the shell

hmm for a totally random and now obsolete thought, given they cast the turrets i wonder if using say the massive japan steel works that do reactor forgings, could you make a fully forged turret?

would have to be the soviet round type not the nato angular type but would be interesting.

but meaningless now that Armour piercing rounds can penetrate literal meters of rolled homogeneous steel

 

[adolf hamster]

cool

funcky casting for the shell

hmm for a totally random and now obsolete thought, given they cast the turrets i wonder if using say the massive japan steel works that do reactor forgings, could you make a fully forged turret?

would have to be the soviet round type not the nato angular type but would be interesting.

but meaningless now that Armour piercing rounds can penetrate literal meters of rolled homogeneous steel

this is why we tend to have layered armour these days, with layers designed to deal with each main type of ap round.

 

[Tefal]

this is why we tend to have layered armour these days, with layers designed to deal with each main type of ap round.

yep with out explosive Armour, or ceramic/chobham style Armour inside the steel may as well be made of paper

 

[EsaT]

Protecting against airblast is possible, but direct hit...
That's like asking vehicle to survive inside sun.

That's why US gave up making more land based missiles with hardened silos and instead focused on ballistic missile submarines.
Because no silo could protect missile from accurate enough incoming nuke making hole into ground where that silo used to be...

but i think ablation will be the basis of any close survival system.

a protective bubble of your own boiled off Armour will provide a lot of thermal protection

You know what's the main mechanism compressing fusion stages to pressure/temperature needed for fusion?
It's energy of previous stage causing literally explosive ablation of surface crushing/imploding secondary...

 

[Tefal]

Protecting against airblast is possible, but direct hit...
That's like asking vehicle to survive inside sun.

That's why US gave up making more land based missiles with hardened silos and instead focused on ballistic missile submarines.
Because no silo could protect missile from accurate enough incoming nuke making hole into ground where that silo used to be...


You know what's the main mechanism compressing fusion stages to pressure/temperature needed for fusion?
It's energy of previous stage causing literally explosive ablation of surface crushing/imploding secondary...

yeah but a tank wouldnt be sourounded by polystyrene like the fusion core lol and also wouldnt be exposed from all sides so much, the winds from the explosion would carry the gass off.

ablation is an effective barrier to heat (for most basic principle libenfrost effect)

the USA still has a lot of land based siloes, as does Russia, but yeah they became obsolete as soon as the accuracy of ICBMS went from "a few miles" to a few feet. they are just a first strike thing now i think.


do nuclear weapons make an excessive amount of neutrons? cause if soyoud have to include polestyrene or some other hydrogen rich material in the armopur but that would as you say add another problem as it gets turned to gas by the xrays.

we know 500 yards is possible with nothing but steel armour and a 1950s design.

how close are we calling zero, actually touching or say 10m? (as there would be a huge difference there alone)

 

[Orionaut]

as for the pusher plate I didn't know it was that thin I remember reading they wanted to make it out of uranium and then when the ship arrived at its destination it could be reused as fuel for reactors.
?

That was one of the ideas for the Star Ship concept. Not for the interplanetary designs.

but that ship is designed to be inspace, for most of the time which means significantly less "mass" than in atmosphere hitting it.

?

Indeed, as I said, the mechanism of a Nuclear explosion is quite different to that of a chemical one.

There is little or no "Blast" in space. For the spacecraft propulsion the "Bombs" had to be surrounded by material that would be vaporised by the Neutrons/gamma rays to create a jet of plasma that would impact on the pusher plate. The 10M engines were intended to use Tungsten, the larger designs other material like polyethylene,

 

[Tefal]

That was one of the ideas for the Star Ship concept. Not for the interplanetary designs.





Indeed, as I said, the mechanism of a Nuclear explosion is quite different to that of a chemical one.

There is little or no "Blast" in space. For the spacecraft propulsion the "Bombs" had to be surrounded by material that would be vaporised by the Neutrons/gamma rays to create a jet of plasma that would impact on the pusher plate. The 10M engines were intended to use Tungsten, the larger designs other material like polyethylene,

i suppose the idea wopuld be drop bomb, and then drop subsiquent parcels of "mass" between it and the ship to save wasting energy.

its a cool concept such a shame it wasnt follwoed though.

we have enough pointless deserts on earth we could use for a launch site.