Soldato
Printer fixerMechanical engineer is a broad title
I know that's not a mechanical engineer, I'm just trolling fyi
Taking a 4k pay cut
- Thread starter Jonnybmac
- Start date
I know that's not a mechanical engineer, I'm just trolling fyi
Remember you don't have to stay in the job for more than a year. If it builds your CV so that you have both a degree and some junior experience at a well known company, it can act as a springboard. Doesn't stop you from trying to negotiate more through a bluff though.
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Also sounds like you still have time to graduate. Nothing to stop you looking for a better job in that time.
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Also sounds like you still have time to graduate. Nothing to stop you looking for a better job in that time.
Associate
When are you likely to be applying for the mortgage?
To be honest that looks like an ambitious job spec for the salary. For example, we would not expect our draughting staff to carry out design calculations. Are you confident in being able to do the calcs at this stage through your degree?
I can't work out exactly what they are asking for - it looks like a cheeky attempt at halfway between a grad and a draughtsman with none of the pay. It would be good experience though, a bit of a do-it-all job.
To be honest that looks like an ambitious job spec for the salary. For example, we would not expect our draughting staff to carry out design calculations. Are you confident in being able to do the calcs at this stage through your degree?
I can't work out exactly what they are asking for - it looks like a cheeky attempt at halfway between a grad and a draughtsman with none of the pay. It would be good experience though, a bit of a do-it-all job.
Not sure what calcs they would be asking me for so I would not know. It is ambitious but at the same time throw me in at the deep end and let me swim. If i need to do calcs then show me how I'm confident i could do them, but at the price they offer i don't think they would expect anyone to be able to recite calcs from the back of their hand.
I did well with my maths modules such as calculus and even taylor series. My last module was heavily orientated towarda calculations such as stress fracture, bending moments etc.
Ideally i would have liked to have got a foot in the bottom as a draughsman but this seems as you say a taste of everything.
Associate
Like you say, you'll probably be alright. Basic calcs would likelybe checking bending stresses, shear, maybe some fatigue etc. or sizing pipes and pumps depending on the equipment. Doing the actual calcs isn't the difficult part, it's knowing how to do them against certain design standards like Eurocodes or DIN or whatever. This is what strikes me as odd in the job post - it seems unfair to expect a Junior Engineer to be able to do all that without any supervision. You don't learn working to codes at uni, in general, so it's all picked up through on the job learning and mentoring.
If you get it, you'll be fine though. Good experience. Are you thinking of getting a mortgage soon? As soon as you graduate you can ask them to put you on a grad scheme or promote you to the grade above grad based on your experience. I'd say that would be about 25k minimum. I think our grads are on around 28-30k, depending on industry, with a "golden hello".
Just so you know, almost all employers would rather have a person who has real experience and has done a degree part time off their own back than a fresh grad with a couple of summer jobs. Apart from the added experience, there's less chance the part time uni person will be whinging about the lack of vegan milk alternatives in the office fridge...
Well my partner wants to move out of our home she solely owns to get a joint morgage. Her fixed rate is up in march and she doesn't want to enter another 2 years unfortunately so im going to have to be selfish in my decision. I'm not sure I'm just being impatient and should wait till i graduate but i just don't want to end up graduating and falling short of finding somewhere as ill be 34.
I do get the standards part. Part of my previous role as a cmm inspector was using asme y14.5 2009 for gd&t and the specifications just for that are enough of a headache to learn for inspection never mind abiding to them for drawing.
Well i took the interview. Had the nerves a bit as I didn't know what to expect and the more through the interview we went the more I thought this could be a very good opportunity.
Got asked to pick an item from my home and describe how it works. I said a kettle! ...er.. it has a heating element that heats water. Okay I've probably picked the wrong item here to describe... it will most likely have a bimetalic strip that when it reaches a temp of 100°C.
Then he asked how it heats the water and responded by electric resistance. Then asked where the electric comes from, and how many volts will it have. Stumbled and said I'm going to be honest and say I would be guessing the answer and said 240v - correct!
Then i got a set of questions to go through such as a a stress calculation, torque calc and hoop stress, formulas given except for torque .got them correct, failed on a welding symbol and passed on identifying pictures of a lathe, mill and micrometer.
The interview ovenran the 1 hour they scheduled so as far as flow went i had enough to talk about and it seemed very informal bar the few questions.
They answered all my questions and said there is two roles available, to replace someone who left who had a masters degree. They want to train someone up who is prepared to stay in the company and grow. The role will be a crash course and they need someone who can be a sponge and absorb everything. I will be walked through everything from the ground up, and introduced to a lot of different aspects and walked through all the different standards they have to follow.
I did mention if i get the role i would purchase a student version of solidworks to refresh my skills as i havent used it in years and I'm more familiar with autodesk and they said not to bother spending money, they are prepared to coach someone and mentor them up to speed.
I was honest with where i was skills wise, didn't big myself up more than i am capable as i said to them i want to be open about where i am so i can get the proper skills and development. Told then i won't be as efficient off the bat as I'm mostly home taught and never drawn in a working environment.
They commented saying i did a very good interview and both present had positive smiles on their faces as we shook to leave. He did ask if i was able to bring my portfolio of work back if i was to get through to the second interviews so not sure if that was a hint that I'll be back.
Now i know they are replacing a serior engineer i could probably push a few more grand out of them and they would still be getting a cheaper deal of two people and less money.
Tldr:
Interview went well. Like the job even more than i first thought. Training will be given and no expectancy to know much or anything as long as i grasp the basics and can absorb information. The stuff they do is pretty complex and they adhere to many standards and specifications so a lot to learn, or a lot of feathers tp my cap depending on how you look at it. Mid next week wait to find out if i get through to 2nd stage.
Got asked to pick an item from my home and describe how it works. I said a kettle! ...er.. it has a heating element that heats water. Okay I've probably picked the wrong item here to describe... it will most likely have a bimetalic strip that when it reaches a temp of 100°C.
Then he asked how it heats the water and responded by electric resistance. Then asked where the electric comes from, and how many volts will it have. Stumbled and said I'm going to be honest and say I would be guessing the answer and said 240v - correct!
Then i got a set of questions to go through such as a a stress calculation, torque calc and hoop stress, formulas given except for torque .got them correct, failed on a welding symbol and passed on identifying pictures of a lathe, mill and micrometer.
The interview ovenran the 1 hour they scheduled so as far as flow went i had enough to talk about and it seemed very informal bar the few questions.
They answered all my questions and said there is two roles available, to replace someone who left who had a masters degree. They want to train someone up who is prepared to stay in the company and grow. The role will be a crash course and they need someone who can be a sponge and absorb everything. I will be walked through everything from the ground up, and introduced to a lot of different aspects and walked through all the different standards they have to follow.
I did mention if i get the role i would purchase a student version of solidworks to refresh my skills as i havent used it in years and I'm more familiar with autodesk and they said not to bother spending money, they are prepared to coach someone and mentor them up to speed.
I was honest with where i was skills wise, didn't big myself up more than i am capable as i said to them i want to be open about where i am so i can get the proper skills and development. Told then i won't be as efficient off the bat as I'm mostly home taught and never drawn in a working environment.
They commented saying i did a very good interview and both present had positive smiles on their faces as we shook to leave. He did ask if i was able to bring my portfolio of work back if i was to get through to the second interviews so not sure if that was a hint that I'll be back.
Now i know they are replacing a serior engineer i could probably push a few more grand out of them and they would still be getting a cheaper deal of two people and less money.
Tldr:
Interview went well. Like the job even more than i first thought. Training will be given and no expectancy to know much or anything as long as i grasp the basics and can absorb information. The stuff they do is pretty complex and they adhere to many standards and specifications so a lot to learn, or a lot of feathers tp my cap depending on how you look at it. Mid next week wait to find out if i get through to 2nd stage.
Been asked to return for a second meeting to iron things out. Feedback was that they were really impressed with me and the interview went very well. They have dropped the other applicants as they wernt up to expectations and so there is only me in the running.
Didn't discussed pay in the first meeting but I am going to ask if they are willing to meet me half way with pay so i only take a 2k pay cut rather than 4
Didn't discussed pay in the first meeting but I am going to ask if they are willing to meet me half way with pay so i only take a 2k pay cut rather than 4
Thank you. I'm still torn as to what to do if I don't get more than 4k. Do I take it? Is it unfair to waste peoples time and clearly the agent who headhunted me's commission by saying no. Would i get another opportunity like this I'm not too sure
I took a 35% pay cut (substantially more than 4k) last year when I changed department within my company, and it was a terrific move for me. I did go from a six day (Friday - Wednesday) week to a five day week (Mon - Fri) so increased the amount of free time I have but the drop in money isn't really an issue. Sure, I'm not saving like I was but I'm much happier, I enjoy going into work (mostly), I'm happy with what I do there and I love having my weekends. I've made a bit of a cutback to my life style but I'm not spending more than I'm earning and I'm much happier.
My point? If the job will make you happier, and you can survive on the lower money then do it. Money isn't everything.
My point? If the job will make you happier, and you can survive on the lower money then do it. Money isn't everything.
Soldato
I'd go through the 2nd interview, they're bound to ask what you're currently on and then they'll ask if you're OK with taking a pay drop. Maybe avoid answering the 'So how much are you looking for?' question, instead state that you're currently on X and ideally don't want to drop too much money, but a small drop is OK for the experience and progression you'll gain in the new role
Then, if they offer you the position and they come in £4k or more under what you're currently on, you can go back (knowing you're the only candidate left and they obviously want to hire you) and try and negotiate a couple of extra k a year. £2k a year won't break the bank for them, I guarantee - but if it's the difference between them getting a great person for the job and paying £2k more than they wanted, or having to go through the entire recruiting process again...
Basically, if (when!
) they make an offer, then you start to negotiate if the offer isn't quite what you'd hoped for. Don't just flat out say no if it's £4k less, it's like buying a car - You make a low offer, which always gets rejected, the seller comes in a bit over half way between your offer and the asking price, you then increase a little and they bite 
Now - it may also be that what they offer is the maximum they can offer, in which case you'll need to say 'give me a couple of days to work out the finances' and then sit down with the missus and weight up the pros and cons, long term vs short term etc.
Soldato
You sound pretty close to the type of person I'd employ if looking for a graduate with a couple of years of experience.
That would net you about £25k, maybe more down here in the SE.
I was almost in your exact position 7 years ago with only shop floor experience, minus the degree and a year younger. I'd put myself through a HNC and was completing my HND at the time I applied for a design engineer position where I currently work. I did well enough that after 3 years I was sponsored through a part time degree and am now in charge of design where I work.
The interview questions you were asked were strikingly similar to those we ask interviewees, and it sounds like you did okay. The inability for some people, even at master's level, to answer basic technical questions is shocking. Getting some questions wrong is fine, though.
From what you've said, it sounds very promising. I'd personally try to negotiate upwards to your ideal figure, especially seeing as they've shown their hand and you're apparently the only one left in the running. They can only say no.
That would net you about £25k, maybe more down here in the SE.
I was almost in your exact position 7 years ago with only shop floor experience, minus the degree and a year younger. I'd put myself through a HNC and was completing my HND at the time I applied for a design engineer position where I currently work. I did well enough that after 3 years I was sponsored through a part time degree and am now in charge of design where I work.
The interview questions you were asked were strikingly similar to those we ask interviewees, and it sounds like you did okay. The inability for some people, even at master's level, to answer basic technical questions is shocking. Getting some questions wrong is fine, though.
From what you've said, it sounds very promising. I'd personally try to negotiate upwards to your ideal figure, especially seeing as they've shown their hand and you're apparently the only one left in the running. They can only say no.
I guess it is what you can comfortably afford sometimes, but 20k isn't much a year for me anyways so 17% is a lot when it takes you to a knife edge of finances.
I'd go through the 2nd interview, they're bound to ask what you're currently on and then they'll ask if you're OK with taking a pay drop. Maybe avoid answering the 'So how much are you looking for?' question, instead state that you're currently on X and ideally don't want to drop too much money, but a small drop is OK for the experience and progression you'll gain in the new role
Then, if they offer you the position and they come in £4k or more under what you're currently on, you can go back (knowing you're the only candidate left and they obviously want to hire you) and try and negotiate a couple of extra k a year. £2k a year won't break the bank for them, I guarantee - but if it's the difference between them getting a great person for the job and paying £2k more than they wanted, or having to go through the entire recruiting process again...
Basically, if (when!
Now - it may also be that what they offer is the maximum they can offer, in which case you'll need to say 'give me a couple of days to work out the finances' and then sit down with the missus and weight up the pros and cons, long term vs short term etc.
Some good tips there thank you, will definitely put them to good use
Thank you and valid point about them showing their hand. Hopefully i can use it to my advantage
Thanks for the tips everyone
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Don't worry about asking for more, you've not asked yet and you're already lowering it to meeting them half way?
If they have already dropped other candidates and you're the only suitable one in the running at the moment then perhaps they're not really offering enough money to begin with, either way you're in a fairly strong position. If they make an offer first then I don't see the harm in asking for more money and highlighting what you're already on. If you really want the job and they really can't budge much then bring up meeting you half way... but if this extra 4k means a lot to you and you'd be having to be super careful with money if only on 20k then it is worth pushing for the typical mid to large size firm it is nothing to them - it is worth trying to ask for what you want initially before dropping your offer.
The majority of hiring managers tend to keep some budget to one side when making an initial offer to a job applicant and the majority of job applicants don't ask for more money... so most people are needlessly leaving money on the table, most of us do feel awkward asking for more money, we shouldn't. I guess as they've seemingly given a salary range up front there is a possibility of them being a bit less flexible but it would be worrying if they couldn't even meet you halfway... I mean I presume you'd be expecting a pay rise at the end of your first year of at least a few grand too, if not a pay rise after probation too (that is the other option perhaps if you have to fall back to them meeting you halfway, ask if they can then make it up to 24k when you pass probation - less risk for them and you're only taking a slight hit to your salary for a few months).
Re: the recruiter, I'm quite surprised they've not asked up front what you currently earn, it is almost a standard question to get out of the way what you earn and what you're looking to get etc.. (I mean I had one even go into what ifs like what if your current employer makes you a counter offer of X, would you stay etc...). Good recruiters don't tend to like surprises that stop them from closing a deal at the last minute. Regardless, don't worry about the recruiter, you're not making an unreasonable request in asking for more money and frankly if they're worried about it they should have covered this potential question themselves when initially talking to you.
The recruiter knows what I earn, and when asked about the 20k I did say if the right opportunity came up I would most likely drop wage. He did ask when he sent me the job am I still happy at 20k and I said yes because I didn't want to miss out on an opportunity. Now tall this has happened and I've had discussions with my partner, my outlook has changed in regards to thinking am I actually getting a raw deal here. I don't think I am when I consider the training I should get, but it would be nice not to take too much of a hit. At a guess I would also be paying £20-30pw more in fuel to travel there also, which equates to an extra 1-1.5k in fuel bills alone.
Soldato
Make sure to factor in the extra fuel as that makes a huge difference to your actual take home pay.
@ £24k you're on (ignoring any pension contributions or other deductions) £1640 take home.
@ £20k you'll be on £1415 take home, but...
extra fuel @ £30pw x 48 = £1440 / 12 = £120 (lets say £115 for rounding sake) so that's an effective take home of £1300 which, in gross pay is...
£18,000. So you'd actually be taking a £6k pay cut from your current role. That's a 25% pay cut. £340 less take home pay a month, that's gonna be hard to swallow. So, try as much as you can to negotiate upwards if they offer you the position.
I know this as I currently cycle to work with maybe 1 day every week or 2 driving. If I started a new job with a 15 mile drive, I'd need to earn another £2.5k a year JUST to cover the fuel cost of getting to work and back in my 25mpg car.
@ £24k you're on (ignoring any pension contributions or other deductions) £1640 take home.
@ £20k you'll be on £1415 take home, but...
extra fuel @ £30pw x 48 = £1440 / 12 = £120 (lets say £115 for rounding sake) so that's an effective take home of £1300 which, in gross pay is...
£18,000. So you'd actually be taking a £6k pay cut from your current role. That's a 25% pay cut. £340 less take home pay a month, that's gonna be hard to swallow. So, try as much as you can to negotiate upwards if they offer you the position.
I know this as I currently cycle to work with maybe 1 day every week or 2 driving. If I started a new job with a 15 mile drive, I'd need to earn another £2.5k a year JUST to cover the fuel cost of getting to work and back in my 25mpg car.
Make sure to factor in the extra fuel as that makes a huge difference to your actual take home pay.
@ £24k you're on (ignoring any pension contributions or other deductions) £1640 take home.
@ £20k you'll be on £1415 take home, but...
extra fuel @ £30pw x 48 = £1440 / 12 = £120 (lets say £115 for rounding sake) so that's an effective take home of £1300 which, in gross pay is...
£18,000. So you'd actually be taking a £6k pay cut from your current role. That's a 25% pay cut. £340 less take home pay a month, that's gonna be hard to swallow. So, try as much as you can to negotiate upwards if they offer you the position.
I know this as I currently cycle to work with maybe 1 day every week or 2 driving. If I started a new job with a 15 mile drive, I'd need to earn another £2.5k a year JUST to cover the fuel cost of getting to work and back in my 25mpg car.
Would it be wise to do the sums as you describe and present them to them if they ask? Or just keep it as a low key, I've done some calcs and I stand to lose 6k taking this job... are you willing to negotiate on your offer?
Ah that is a bit awkward, you potentially are going to upset the recruiter if they offer you the role at 20k after you've told him you'd be happy with 20k and then you decide to change your mind and ask for more... having said that, probably still worth asking.
No, no one is interested in any detailed calculations/breakdown of how much fuel is going to cost you etc.. etc.. at most you might well mentioned there is an additional commute on top but really that's your problem, the main leverage you have here is simply the fact you're already happily employed and already earning more than they're offering.
Soldato
Just take it into consideration when doing the sums as to how much worse off you'll be, and when working out if it's feasible to accept if they offer lower than you want.