Taking DNA from birth

dirtychinchilla said:
DNA is quite often used to exclude people from crimes, as well as including them, so it could be positive from that perspective. There are a few horror stories around of being falsely accused by DNA evidence though.
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You have a very good point, imagine where crimes would be at these days if it weren't for fingerprints and DNA. HOWEVER I am personally happy to give my DNA and fingerprints to rule me out of a crime however I would want them destroyed after the current allotted time under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, even in this act the government have given themselves a get out clause that they can keep them indefinitely if they are a terrorist. How do they define terrorist, is it someone who has admitted to a crime of terror is it who they believe, because falling under the Terrorism Act 2000 police officers stop and searched over 100k of people by misusing their power to call anyone a 'terrorist'.

This war on 'terror' is flipping ridiculous, we haven't had a terrorist attack in years, we don't need laws to make it so the police can stop and search anyone they want because if someone wants to commit terror their not going to be stopped by being searched in a street.
 
Hyburnate said:
You have a very good point, imagine where crimes would be at these days if it weren't for fingerprints and DNA. HOWEVER I am personally happy to give my DNA and fingerprints to rule me out of a crime however I would want them destroyed after the current allotted time under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, even in this act the government have given themselves a get out clause that they can keep them indefinitely if they are a terrorist. How do they define terrorist, is it someone who has admitted to a crime of terror is it who they believe, because falling under the Terrorism Act 2000 police officers stop and searched over 100k of people by misusing their power to call anyone a 'terrorist'.
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q4t

B@
 
Thompson_NCL said:
I fail to see why anyone has a problem with the idea of a DNA database. How exactly can the government misuse that information I wonder? The benefits could be huge, especially in the areas of crime and medicine. It seems worthwhile to me.

But then I didn't get (besides costs) why ID cards were an issue. In a country suffering with so many illegal immigrants, ID cards seemed logical and consistent with many other nations.

I also think there should be an automatic paternity test for new children. All fathers deserve to know if the child is theirs before they invest money into them.
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In principle, I have no opposition to my DNA being on a database.

However, you only have to look at recent legal cases to see that DNA evidence is often not watertight.

What if someone finds 0.00001 micro grams of your DNA on a coat belonging to a murder victim? Sometimes fragments of our DNA end up all over the place.

Placing too much weight behind trace amounts of DNA as 'evidence' seems like a dangerous way to make a conviction. And indeed some have been overturned recently, but not before someone has spent years in jail...
 
TFleming said:
In the near future scientists expect to be able to fully map the genome, so the NHS could use these records to forewarn people of potential health risks, and so on.
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Alternatively, your DNA shows you to have the potential to be a violent serial killer rapist and you are locked up without having committed any crime in order to protect any future victims.

An extreme example obviously.
 
Luci said:
Alternatively, your DNA shows you to have the potential to be a violent serial killer rapist and you are locked up without having committed any crime in order to protect any future victims.

An extreme example obviously.
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Whilst it's an extreme example something on a smaller scale could happen. For example on the royal wedding they arrested tons of activists under the Superintendents orders (the super can increase the time to 72 hours IIRC) on conspiracy to commit alarm and distress (IE: Public Order Act).
 
Luci said:
Alternatively, your DNA shows you to have the potential to be a violent serial killer rapist and you are locked up without having committed any crime in order to protect any future victims.

An extreme example obviously.
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I think this is the issue, nobody knows where DNA/genetics is going. erring on the side of caution is the only option - especially when handing it over to a string of successive governments.

B@
 
However this has some positives to it, trying to track 7 billion people isn't easy, you would need a heck of a system to deal with such a massive amount of information. Plus how are they going to track DNA from people in 3rd world countries, also there is no way you could get different countries to share this sort of information. The only way this would be viable is in a nationwide spectrum and not a worldwide sort of thing.

Even if you did this sort of thing it would do nothing but cost money, the governement doesnt make money on court cases, if anything they lose money putting people in prisons.

I can't see it being done atleast not in the near future
 
dirtychinchilla said:
There are a few horror stories around of being falsely accused by DNA evidence though.
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admittedly not a horror story - but still a major inconvenience.....

my cousin got arrested for being a drunken idiot and the police took his DNA. no problem with that, he only has himself to blame.

a few months the local police in gloucester turn up on his door saying he needs to report to rhyl police station (north wales) because they had DNA evidence to suggest he'd been involved in the theft of a car. he'd never even been to wales but of course he was bricking it because we all think DNA is 100%. what made things worse for him was that he had started a brand new job so he couldn't just ignore it. he didn't want to run the risk of being arrested at work so he had to go out of his way taking a massive round trip to get there via train/bus because he didn't have his own transport. when he got there, they held him for about 30 minutes before letting him go just like that. no explanation, no apology, nothing to help towards costs. they treated him like dirt and he felt he had to choice to obey because of this DNA "evidence".

i know in the grand scheme of things it's not that serious. at least he didn't get locked up for something he didn't do but it's worrying all the same.
 
Andrew Moore said:
DNA database from birth for serious crimes is a good idea.

Letting the NHS use this to inform of potential future illness etc is a disaster waiting to happen.

The world will suffer an outbreak of hypochondria and will also potentially lead to an increase in life expectancy and fewer deaths thus leading to an even greater strain of the worlds resources.

We are after all a cancer to this planet, lets not give the facility for the NHS to sprinkle miracle growth over us.
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Could be on contrary, having massive data-base of DNA in theory you could manufacture illnesses to wipe out certain groups but leave others perfectly fine.

Its all a great idea when you trust your government, but currently we have an eton **** who says he can relate to us... In USA we have a government essentially controlled by private corporations not exactly someone I want to give power of life and death to.

Especially as now time goes, Europe again is becoming more nationalistic next time possibly we wouldnt need to gas certain ethnic group but just release a virus that effects them only.
 
In the last 10 years.....

1.) The gov. lost my DVLA details and contacted me to apologise.

2.) The gov. lost my child benefitt details and contacted me to apologise.

3.) I was sent a letter by a gov. department (office for national statistics) to see if I would fill in a random questionaire about my drink consumption and whether I had taken drugs - it also asked if my children drank or took drugs - all extremely personal stuff that they were using for the NHS apparently. I phoned them up and told them I would not be filling it in and to remove my name from their database (under the data protection act they should have completed my request)
A few weeks later I received another copy of it through the post - so contacted them again and asked them to remove any reference to me and my address on their databases again - to not contact me again via letter or phone and if I heard from the department again I would be writing a complaint.

Two weeks later some guy arrived at my door and asked if I had received the letter as he was there to pick it up.:rolleyes:

Do you honestly think they could not make some sort of ***** up with a DNA database.
 
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I don't think the majority of people (yes, you lot are included) understand what is a DNA database actually is - it is not DNA sequencing! The sort of thing the police do is simply a profiling system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling) that stores a 'bar-code' of numbers that represents your DNA. It does not store the genetic sequence and cannot be used to infer it. At no point will the DNA even be sequenced - that would be far too expensive. It does not allow use by organisations such as the NHS to target treatments, therefore, and is entirely impersonal.

I don't have any issue with it, as it only serves to allow a positive identification where used correctly and with the correct procedures and expertise.
 
The gov could take the dna at birth
Digitise it
Hash it to a unique code
Destroy organic dna

Then when there is dna in crime scene they can hash that with the same hash and if it matches then they've got their person. Basically, just like the iphone fingerprint scanner works.

No need to store organic material that could be used elsewhere, just a code that is useless to pharmaceuticals etc.
 
ntg said:
The gov could take the dna at birth
Digitise it
Hash it to a unique code
Destroy organic dna

Then when there is dna in crime scene they can hash that with the same hash and if it matches then they've got their person. Basically, just like the iphone fingerprint scanner works.

No need to store organic material that could be used elsewhere, just a code that is useless to pharmaceuticals etc.
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But that's not how DNA matching works, or at least the full story, iirc. Its not as simple as abcdefg == abcdefg.

Some parts of the DNA sample may be missing, so they may match **cd*fg == abcdefg, and call that a partial match.

Although I'm not an expert, from what I gather they use partial matches as evidence. So they'd be interested in parts of your DNA, not just a hash of the whole thing.
 
It's worrying that some people (notably the younger people) have such absolute faith in any government that it will

a. not screw up
b. not use that information against them

I blame the poor standard of History education in schools :(


Fundamental rights like personal privacy should not be willingly handed over just because the owner is too dense or gullible to think of reasons not to.
I've no faith in any of the generations to come that they will protect anything of value, I can envisage everything and anything willingly handed over for a new Xbox.
 
If we ever get Govts. who will not bend to the will of the highest paying Corporate Lobbyists and we can entrust absolutely with our personal data then I'd be willing to think about it, until then, no way in hell.
 
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