Talk to me about mirror less DSLR's

Phate

Phate

Phate

Caporegime
Joined
1 Nov 2003
Posts
35,691
Location
Lisbon, Portugal
Hello all!

Ok, so some of you know I'm quite into my Scuba Diving, so naturally I want to take my camera along and snap photos.

However...I'm reluctant to take my SLR for a few reasons...

1) If it floods, I've got a serious issue and an insurance claim to sort out.
2) If the above happens weeks before a wedding is due I'll be in trouble
3) They are big and bulky in a housing
4) The housings are typically the cost of the camera, and then a bit.

Now, when I was at a Dive Show at the NEC late last year I saw a photography stand showing housings build for mirror less SLR cameras, the housings were coming in around £600-£800 - which isn't bad at all! You could even buy 'wet' lenses to change underwater while on the move.

So, I want to find out more about these cameras, first few questions are...

1) Which ones to avoid? Which ones to go for?
2) Anything to look out for, feature wise?
3) IQ - are they as good as a typical DSLR? I know this is dictated massively by the lens in use, but I mean in general, for example a Canon one (if they even do one) may have a better range of lenses.
4) Price wise, do these go into the silly region or are they noticeably cheaper than a pro DSLR?

Any other guidance is welcome, I'm truly in the dark here :)

TIA
Jake
 
I think the main issue here is availability/suitability of different housing/lens combos, rather than suitability of mirrorless systems (which are, with certain caveats, every bit as good as mid-range SLR systems for most uses). Have a look on the dive forums. WetPixel would be a good place to start.
 
King4aDay said:
I think the main issue here is availability/suitability of different housing/lens combos, rather than suitability of mirrorless systems. Have a look on the dive forums. WetPixel would be a good place to start.
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I'm not too fussed about the housing/lens combos as their seem to be suitable options for the main big brands. I'm going to try and build a short list of favourites and work my way through those to see whats available and go from there. Good shout on the forums, I'm going to take a look.

Also had a look at the EOS-M - Tasty camera which my current lenses would fit I think with an adaptor.
 
Nikon AW-1?

Mirrorless, interchangeable lenses, 1" sensor and you can take it in the water without the need for housing.
 
I love my Nikon 1. I have a J1 personally and my company has an AW1. The J1 goes in a Meike housing. Both get used on the end of a pole for video swim analysis.

They are really light, and perfect for casual analysis work where we don't have space for the full poolside kit. There's no doubting the image quality, and the lack of feel/control isn't really an issue in these circumstances.
 
bcjames said:
I love my Nikon 1. I have a J1 personally and my company has an AW1. The J1 goes in a Meike housing. Both get used on the end of a pole for video swim analysis.

They are really light, and perfect for casual analysis work where we don't have space for the full poolside kit. There's no doubting the image quality, and the lack of feel/control isn't really an issue in these circumstances.
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As nice as that would be, it's only waterproof down to 15m. Most dives we hit 25m+ :)

Looks like a nice bit of kit though. Does the non waterproof versions of it have the same sensor etc?
 
I'm at such a split decision right now, I look at underwater shots from the Nikon AW1 and the Canon EOS-M etc and the quality just isn't a patch on an DSLR being used.


Baaaaaah. I then see this http://vimeo.com/42737126 - and I want a housing for the MK3.
 
Phate said:
I'm at such a split decision right now, I look at underwater shots from the Nikon AW1 and the Canon EOS-M etc and the quality just isn't a patch on an DSLR being used.
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This seems unlikely given the EOS-M is basically a 650D in a different body. Of course the comparison is less fair if by DSLR you mean full frame DSLR :p

Whats available housing wise for the Olympus E-PL5? They're incredibly cheap at the moment, better IQ than the EOS-M with very good image stabilisation and a nice selection of fairly affordable fast primes. Same sensor as the E-M5 which i see a lot of people using on dive forums - the E-M5 is a brilliant little camera (I may be biased :p) and can be had for under £400 used now.
 
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King4aDay said:
This seems unlikely given the EOS-M is basically a 650D in a different body. Of course the comparison is less fair if by DSLR you mean full frame DSLR :p

Whats available housing wise for the Olympus E-PL5? They're incredibly cheap at the moment, better IQ than the EOS-M with very good image stabilisation and a nice selection of fairly affordable fast primes. I see a lot of people on dive forums using the E-M5 - that's a brilliant little camera (I may be biased :p) and can be had for under £400 used now.
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I know what you mean, maybe it's just because I'm used to L glass and obviously these images were not taken with said glass :p

Olympus E-PL5, not heard of this one - I'll check it out. :)

Does anyone know what it's like selecting specific focal points on these cameras? Thats what annoys me most about most P&S cameras.
 
Haven't used the E-PL5 myself but on the E-M5 you can either touch-focus using the screen or select any of up to 35 focus points (depending on what size focus points you have set) using the main direction pad.
 
There are pros and Cons to each system.

m43 cameras: most mature, large lens line up, good sensor size allowing small lenses and good IQ. IQ is easily as good as modern Canon crop cameras but a couple of generation behind Sony and Nikon. Reasonable speed and focus.

Sony Nex: larger DX-sized Sony sensor gives great IQ but large lenses. Speed and focus a bit behind the competition, lens choice minimal.

Nikon 1: smaller sensor offers the smallest lens choices if/when Nikon fills out the range but at the moment it is pretty minimal. By far the fastest and best focus and performance, you can do 15FPS on some models. Focus as good as many DSLRs, even when tracking. The sensors need an upgrade to keep up with modern DSLR but is perfectly reasonable.


Those are the 3 main contenders. Samsung has a system but it tends to be expensive and hard to find but is very good, large lenses on a DX sized sensor. Fuji also have a system with a very good sensor but again larger lenses. Canon gave up selling mirror-less outside Asia (and for good reason, IQ no better than the other mirrorless camera but in a larger slower body with only a couple lenses).



Depends what you want, the m43 camera are by far the most feature filled, mature, complete systems with a large selection of great glass. Many of the high end bodies will compete with DSLRs for functionality. Nikon 1 has by far the best focusing and performance that is better than many DSLRs but way less lenses and they haven't made a serious body yet. Both m43 and Nikon 1 allow good reach with mall lenses. Sony Nex is great for static landscape type work but the larger lenses are too heavy or non existent
 
Phate said:
I know what you mean, maybe it's just because I'm used to L glass and obviously these images were not taken with said glass :p

Olympus E-PL5, not heard of this one - I'll check it out. :)

Does anyone know what it's like selecting specific focal points on these cameras? Thats what annoys me most about most P&S cameras.
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I would definitely check out the Olympus E-PL5, probably the best choice overall.

Focusing is easy, just point on the back LCD.
And L glass is just a marketing tool that says nothing about the IQ (it refers to build quality) so I doubt that is the reason.
 
steve258 said:
This thread reminds me of a review I've seen a while back comparing EVIL and DSLR in underwater environment, should give you a pretty good idea of what to expect in terms of IQ:

http://www.divephotoguide.com/under...cial-features/article/evil-vs-dslr--showdown/

The review is from a year ago though, the newest mirror-less offerings have much improved performance.

Hope this helps
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Hi Steve,

Thanks very much for that link, just spent the past 15-20 minutes reading it and loved every second of it. It's fantastic to see a direct comparison like that by actual photographers.

A lot of the reviews I read were not by pro photographers but by divers who enjoyed photography, whereas these guys seemed to know what they were talking about which was more reassuring and gave a good comparison between the two.

That has made the decision for me. Even though last night I found a recommended housing for the 5D3 which comes in at £1600 made by a company called Ikelite - It's going to cost me roughly this much if not a little more to buy a camera, lenses, housing and adaptors - probably just over £2k in total - but at least I'll have peace of mind that if I damage any of it I can get it replaced under insurance and not have to worry about affecting client work. Plus it would be nice to have a small carry around camera for going into town etc. It'll be interesting to have a new bit of tech to play with and to learn a new form of photography...I've dabbled in UW Photography, and I can tell you it's an entirely different kettle of fish :D

Now I've decided to 100% go ahead with a mirror less system I need to pick a camera, lens setup and lights etc....it's all very exciting :D

Might pick up the camera in the next couple of weeks so I can start playing :)
 
I've started looking into this as I was a little too scared to take my 5D underwater and there didn't seem to be any underwater housings for my X100 either.

If you went with the NEX I think you'd need a housing and also a lens port for the housing which is going to get expensive.

I've decided to go with the RX100 which will need a housing and then you can use wet lenses on the housing.

Playing about with the RX100 I am impressed with the image quality and the AF seems like it will be good enough.

I've got a wide angle wet lens, just currently deciding on a housing and strobe to go with it.
 
Columbo said:
Nikon AW-1?

Mirrorless, interchangeable lenses, 1" sensor and you can take it in the water without the need for housing.
Click to expand...

It hasn't got a dedicated housing yet AFAIK, there may be a few third party ones around for it now though, last time I looked was December. It won't be fully suitable for scuba diving without a housing as it is only waterproof to 10m (15m with the 10mm prime). Its a great little camera though and has good IQ. I used mine for a weeks sea kayaking trip (with snorkelling) and it was great.

It only has two waterproof lenses at the moment as well, although there was supposed to be an external flash coming for it at some point.
 
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