Testing related to work (ex. OFSTED, interviews, etc.)

[Kyle009]

Attractive of teacher. Only takes a 20min glance.

Ok so you have an opinion on how easy it is to rate a school but have no substance to back it up. Fair enough.

Yes, I have muddled that and that's even more bizarre, it's just some grandstanding in general then re: Ofsted. Though I understand a school deemed inadequate, as that other one was, is liable to be inspected more frequently.

You are kind of right, an inadequate school will get revisited to check for improvements. If there are none or not sufficient they may be placed into special measures which would generate a visit every term

 

[dlockers]

Ok so you have an opinion on how easy it is to rate a school but have no substance to back it up. Fair enough.

I never claimed it was easy; I just don't see time being the driver of the issue here.

 

[Kyle009]

I never claimed it was easy; I just don't see time being the driver of the issue here.

You said that you'd be able to judge the quality of teaching using analytics or AI and then said you'd judge it by the attractiveness of the teacher. To me this implied it was an easy assessment.

Can you clarify how spending longer with a teacher would not be a truer indicator of how good they are? I'm not saying this is the solution but if you see me teach for 20 minutes how do you judge if that is a good 20 minutes? The class might be really good well behaved students and I am not actually pushing them far enough. Or equally it might be a class that struggles to keep themselves in their seats for an hour and getting them to complete any piece of work is amazing, but what you see in 20 minutes is very little progress.

 

[dlockers]

Can you clarify how spending longer with a teacher would not be a truer indicator of how good they are? I'm not saying this is the solution but if you see me teach for 20 minutes how do you judge if that is a good 20 minutes? The class might be really good well behaved students and I am not actually pushing them far enough. Or equally it might be a class that struggles to keep themselves in their seats for an hour and getting them to complete any piece of work is amazing, but what you see in 20 minutes is very little progress.

I'm not really one for deep meaningful conversation in topics that don't massively interest me (this is a casual general discussion forum after all) but if a driving test can evidence sufficient competency to control a motor vehicle in an hour(ish) using a major/minor infraction system, then sufficient time to conclude the teacher hasn't become a total muppet (as presumably confirming the teacher is qualified and competent is not in Ofsted remit) is enough.

Then on balance if the sample of hand picked teachers have all major infractions, it is probably a fair reflection of the school itself.

I mean a teacher really has to balls things up to be called out, no?

 

[Pottsey]

You said that you'd be able to judge the quality of teaching using analytics or AI and then said you'd judge it by the attractiveness of the teacher. To me this implied it was an easy assessment.

Can you clarify how spending longer with a teacher would not be a truer indicator of how good they are? I'm not saying this is the solution but if you see me teach for 20 minutes how do you judge if that is a good 20 minutes? The class might be really good well behaved students and I am not actually pushing them far enough. Or equally it might be a class that struggles to keep themselves in their seats for an hour and getting them to complete any piece of work is amazing, but what you see in 20 minutes is very little progress.

OFSTED isn't about judging the individual teacher its about the wider picture and the school as a whole. Consistency across the school, quality e.c.t 1 bad lesson is not going to bring down the grade of the school if most of the the others are good. Likewise badly behaved students don't bring down the grade its how the staff react to those badly behaved students that matters. Not the behaviour itself. There are exception of course like if the teacher caused the bad behaviour by doing something stupid they shouldn't have. Seeing multiple teachers and multiple lessons gives a better picture of the school overall rather then focusing on 1 teacher trying to be sure if they are good or not. That's not OFSTEADS jobs. SLT job is to keep teaching and leaning to a high stranded and OFSTEAD are there to make sure that is the case. Also the new shorter inspections are way better then the old longer ones. I wouldn't want to go back to the 1 week+ inspections we used to do.

OFSTED are not just looking at the teacher alone to judge how good teaching is. The 20min observation is not isolated it goes along side looking at grades, mark books, progress tracking, assessment data, performance tables which compare the school to similar schools, attendance and all the other indications.

EDIT: Try it from this prospective. If OFSTEAD see 18 bad lessons and 2 good lessons followed with all the other data being poor its a strong indication there is a problem. If OFSTEAD see 18 good lessons, good data, good results, 2 poor lessons but the overall data for those lessons is good over the year. Then its a sign SLT are doing a good job keeping standards high and teachers are overall of good quality.

Another way to look at is. Its not how much progress the students make that matters in the individual 20min slot, its what you are doing so that students have a chance to learn and have a chance to progress that matters. No one should be expecting teenagers to be perfectly behaved 100% of the time and making 100% progress all the time. What matters is how you deal with the student when they are below 100%.

 

[throwaway4372]

what happens if the headteachers just refuse to speak to ofsted anymore?

 

[dlockers]

Another way to look at is. Its not how much progress the students make that matters in the individual 20min slot, its what you are doing so that students have a chance to learn and have a chance to progress that matters. No one should be expecting teenagers to be perfectly behaved 100% of the time and making 100% progress all the time. What matters is how you deal with the student when they are below 100%.

And at the absolute minimum the kids should understand where they are in the syllabus and how much is left to go.

 

[ianh]

Until you have experienced a full section 5 inspection you cannot really understand just how stressful they can get and the build up lead into the inspection.

Would you be able to describe to us i.e. the general public who have no experience - what goes into a Section 5 inspection, just so that we can have some idea of what that entails so we can try to understand the process? I'm an instructor in adult education so I've been through a lot of EQA's from various organisations but never had to go through an Ofsted one so I'm trying to understand the different levels expected from you and the Government's Legislation page for Section 5 just talks about the scheduling, rather than what is expected.

They note issues with attendance, supervision during break times and safeguarding which seems to be a failure of both the school management and the governors:

That would suggest that the downgrading was justified to me, so I'm struggling to understand why the general public are being asked to protest against Ofsted when they've seemingly done the "right" thing here.

 

[Pottsey]

what happens if the headteachers just refuse to speak to ofsted anymore?

That would be seen as intentionally obstructing Ofsted which is a criminal offence. It could also been seen as gross misconduct leading to suspension or dismissal from the school.

 

[dowie]

You didn't answer my question though, do you think you could make a sufficient judgment to a teachers quality within a 20 minute window?

Just to come back to this, given @Pottsey 's post above I'm now updating my opinion from neutral/no opinion to suspecting that there is probably some element of diminishing returns here; if they're looking at multiple teachers then one being unlucky and the inspectors catching them at a bad moment shouldn't be too much of a drama and there seems to be plenty more they look at than just observing the teaching.

what happens if the headteachers just refuse to speak to ofsted anymore?

They'd be breaking the law and can be fined or possibly imprisoned for up to 6 months AFAIK.

That would suggest that the downgrading was justified to me, so I'm struggling to understand why the general public are being asked to protest against Ofsted when they've seemingly done the "right" thing here.

Well, it seems to be an example of what the tweeter shown in the OP believes is a female trait, this sort of emotive/posturing stuff, lack of respect for the rules... I guess perhaps she fancies herself as some noble campaigner for justice... she's a "survivor & warrior" etc.

Seems to be criticising curriculums being narrowed for the sake of league tables, but if she's the head then surely she's got some influence there... unless she's against league tables too.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1639177100535148544

 

[Pottsey]

Would you be able to describe to us i.e. the general public who have no experience - what goes into a Section 5 inspection, just so that we can have some idea of what that entails so we can try to understand the process? I'm an instructor in adult education so I've been through a lot of EQA's from various organisations but never had to go through an Ofsted one so I'm trying to understand the different levels expected from you and the Government's Legislation page for Section 5 just talks about the scheduling, rather than what is expected.

That would suggest that the downgrading was justified to me, so I'm struggling to understand why the general public are being asked to protest against Ofsted when they've seemingly done the "right" thing here.

Ofsted usually have a theme something they focus on each time which you are made aware of 1 or 2 days before they come in. Your overall grade is made up of an average of your scoring for each section with the exception that total grade cannot be higher then teaching and leaning or safeguarding. Fail those two and it doesn't matter how outstanding anything else is.

The Head will get a phone call at which point it goes something like the SLT team will be called in and/or if its an Academy the CEO will be informed. The head will have a long phone call with Ofsted about the theme, plan and what they want to see. SLT will get together and decide the best course of action. At this point everything changes based on the school/Academy some kick into action, others run around like headless chickens. For us Admin staff would be informed and start checking everything they already do, make sure the right to work files, who has access to the site, HR everything is in order. IT and Site will be informed who will walk around the site and make sure everything is in order often staying past working orders. 5 ish hours later often after lunch or end of day classroom staff will be asked to attend a mandatory meeting often near end of school day and be informed. At which point they check mark books, check registers, make sure classrooms are tidy basically all the things everyone should be doing. Brush up on policies, brush up on curriculum plans. If you are already doing a decent job you shouldn't need more then a few hours after work to make sure everything is in order. If you are in a bad school you might be at work till 4am trying to create everything that should be in place. Heads of department are expected to do more then classroom staff.

The following day everyone meets the inspectors first thing in the morning for an introduction then the school day goes as "normal" most sites I have been on don't make exceptions to the timetable just because Ofsted are in. If it was a trip day or swimming lesson day that stays as it is. We don't create "trips for students" because Ofsted are in. Though I know full well other schools try this. Early on in the day a timetable goes out with which departments and lessons Ofsted want to see and when. Though this is not set in stone and they can randomly enter a classroom though in my experience that happens but is rare.

How smooth or stressful the experience is largely comes down to the schools structure, leadership and planning. It is a little stressful but it shouldn't be that unreasonable if you are in a well run school. The inspectors are meant to match and have experience in the type of school they go to. Not always the entire team. I have experienced it all from some of the best Ofsted's to the worse 1% in the county where the school is forced to shut the next day. It can be extremely stressful if the schools leadership is poor.

 

[dlockers]

Seems to be criticising curriculums being narrowed for the sake of league tables, but if she's the head then surely she's got some influence there... unless she's against league tables too.

I'm witnessing a lot of this crap where I live at the moment. Childminders are the "bottom rung" and lots are talking about forest schools and removing children from the mainstream rat race etc. usually in no consultation with the parents. Worrying who may be at the helm of some of these schools.

 

[ianh]

For us Admin staff would be informed and start checking everything they already do, make sure the right to work files, who has access to the site, HR everything is in order. IT and Site will be informed who will walk around the site and make sure everything is in order often staying past working orders. 5 ish hours later often after lunch or end of day classroom staff will be asked to attend a mandatory meeting often near end of school day and be informed. At which point they check mark books, check registers, make sure classrooms are tidy basically all the things everyone should be doing. Brush up on policies, brush up on curriculum plans. If you are already doing a decent job you shouldn't need more then a few hours after work to make sure everything is in order. If you are in a bad school you might be at work till 4am trying to create everything that should be in place. Heads of department are expected to do more then classroom staff.

The following day everyone meets the inspectors first thing in the morning for an introduction then the school day goes as "normal" most sites I have been on don't make exceptions to the timetable just because Ofsted are in. If it was a trip day or swimming lesson day that stays as it is. We don't create "trips for students" because Ofsted are in. Though I know full well other schools try this. Early on in the day a timetable goes out with which departments and lessons Ofsted want to see and when. Though this is not set in stone and they can randomly enter a classroom though in my experience that happens but is rare.

How smooth or stressful the experience is largely comes down to the schools structure, leadership and planning. It is a little stressful but it shouldn't be that unreasonable if you are in a well run school. The inspectors are meant to match and have experience in the type of school they go to. Not always the entire team. I have experienced it all from some of the best Ofsted's to the worse 1% in the county where the school is forced to shut the next day. It can be extremely stressful if the schools leadership is poor.

Thanks for that info, it sounds very similar to what we go through with the same things looked at and checked for.

Generally we have at least 3 different EQA teams visit us so we get a different one about once a year from a different team in rotation - our military customer requires an EQA to ensure we comply with their DEFStan training standards, then as a civilian run aviation training establishment we get an EQA from EASA to validate that our "school" meets their training standards and then finally our company has an EQA for our ISO 9001 covering our internal QMS to make sure we still comply.

We're "lucky" that, as we usually get one EQA a year, plus another 2-3 smaller IQA's per year from a mix of the military & own company, our procedures/policies/paperwork are extremely tight. Where we usually feel pressure is that our syllabus and material isn't created by our company but was bought by the military as part of a wider defence package so our company is sub-contracted from the prime owner to run it, and therefore there can be an extremely large lag (up to 18 months) between spotting something incorrect or asking for a change to the material, and the effects finally being seen, so our QMS for records keeping around change requests has to be perfect over large timescales i.e. the military can ask why we teach something "off material" during an EQA and we have to justify, with agreed/signed paperwork, why we're using some different material due to an error spotted that happened maybe 18 months ago, whilst showing our "temporary" corrected material (as we can't show wrong info) has gone through our QMS via the military to approve its use etc.

 

[GGizmo]

Though I still support most of these systems, what happens if a school gets a low mark?

There seems to be a trend by the government to run things down, and sadly the ones it takes the most out of those who are the most caring. They assume all responsibility, when in reality blaming a school doesn't fix it.

 

[Pottsey]

Though I still support most of these systems, what happens if a school gets a low mark?

There seems to be a trend by the government to run things down, and sadly the ones it takes the most out of those who are the most caring. They assume all responsibility, when in reality blaming a school doesn't fix it.

It depends how low the mark and in what areas. If the school is stand alone they might be asked to link up with a better performing school or join a Trust who will lend there leadership. The school is likely going to be asked to convert over to an Academy. Ofsted can come back in on a regularly basis for extra inspections and a plan expected to be drawn up by leadership to bring up the standards. If the marks are low enough Ofsted can shut the school as fast as the next day and fire staff though this is very rare. Which is why people find Ofstead stressful as your job is on the line. Not just your job but possibly your entire career.