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*** The AMD RDNA 4 Rumour Mill ***

humbug said:
People don't buy AMD dGPU's in OEM just as they don't in retail, a 7800 XT speced OEM box costing the same as a 4070 S is not necessarily AMD's doing, do you think it is? I'll be honest i don't, why would they do that?

I think AMD would rather be competitive with Nvidia, i think they prioritize console because they can't sell dGPU's, its necessity rather than choice, as i said AMD are constantly left with EOL dGPU's they can't sell, regularly writing them off as a loss.

IMO they should have given up a long time ago and redirected those resources to one of the many things they are good at, but they keep trying, for generations i think they have been spending far more on R&D for GPU's than they get back in sales net, they are pulling money from profitable parts of the business to prop up dGPU's, does that seem like a company who cares least about dGPU's?

How do they turn this round? By matching Nvidia in RT and features, do i belive they can do that? No... i think AMD will catch up in RT and upscaling tech but Nvidia have 10X the R&D budget to draw on and by the time AMD catch up with Nvidia as they are today Nvidia will have something entirely new that every tech jurno will tell everyone is the reason not to buy AMD.
Its why i think AMD should throw in the towel and redirect that money.

What are they actually going to do? That ^^^ and concentrate on a more narrow more focused part of the market, good luck...
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What they need to do is stop trying to compete on Nvidia's own terms - the DIY market is fickle. AMD sells far more CPU platforms in desktop and laptops now. Make some good OEM focussed products and integrate them tightly with their CPU products as a bundle. Ask what the DIY PC builders want - just look at the handheld gaming PC APUs AMD has made and how popular they are.

Even go to a company such as Samsung,who has extra capacity to make these cards and use the platform integration advantages AMD will have over Nvidia. Nvidia doesn't have that advantage on Intel platforms.

Trying to go after the high end only makes sense if AMD can compete in performance and feature set.

Nvidia isn't standing still in the CPU department:
www.pcgamer.com

Nvidia's first Arm APU is said to offer Strix Halo and RTX 4070 mobile performance, with Alienware already onboard to create an all-Nvidia gaming laptop

Could 2025 be the year of AMD x86 chips vs Nvidia Arm chips?
www.pcgamer.com www.pcgamer.com

AMD was attempting something different with Strix Halo,but it seems to have been delayed by nearly a year.That is the sort of product they need to be doing.

That is something else they need to fix - they have far more resources now as a company and have to get these cadences sorted out. I am suprised they haven't made something like Strix Halo earlier especially with chiplets and 3D V-Cache. They could have done this during the Zen2/Zen3 days.
 
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CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
What they need to do is stop trying to compete on Nvidia's own terms - the DIY market is fickle. AMD sells far more CPU platforms in desktop and laptops now. Make some good OEM focussed products and integrate them tightly with their CPU products as a bundle. Ask what the DIY PC builders want - just look at the handheld gaming PC APUs AMD has made and how popular they are.

Even go to a company such as Samsung,who has extra capacity to make these cards and use the platform integration advantages AMD will have over Nvidia. Trying to go after the high end only makes sense if AMD can compete in performance and feature set.

Nvidia isn't standing still in the CPU department:
www.pcgamer.com

Nvidia's first Arm APU is said to offer Strix Halo and RTX 4070 mobile performance, with Alienware already onboard to create an all-Nvidia gaming laptop

Could 2025 be the year of AMD x86 chips vs Nvidia Arm chips?
www.pcgamer.com www.pcgamer.com

AMD was attempting something different with Strix Halo,but it seems to have been delayed by nearly a year.That is something else they need to fix - they have far more resources now as a company. I am suprised they haven't made something like Strix Halo earlier especially with chiplets and 3D V-Cache. They could have done this during the Zen2 days.
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AMD are soon to bring out APU's that are mid level dGPU fast, that is a strategy and yes Nvidia have already seen it coming, never mind AMD being a mortal threat to Intel and Qualcomm being an emerging threat to X86 Nvidia are a mortal threat to all of it, they wish to be the ones monopolising the entire space and in time they will, congratulations we got exactly what we asked for if we were aware of it or not.

@gpuerrilla you're now paying £750 for a ##70 class card, let that sit in your mind for a while and then question why everyone is talking about how people think AMD are the only ones who can do something about that.
 
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Nvidia systematically destroyed what was a very rich and vibrant GPU industry, not exaggerating look at the history, we cheered them on..... AMD are the sole survivors of Nvidia's efforts, now Nvidia allow AMD to exist to give the impression of competition.

AMD can't do anything about Nvidia.
 
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humbug said:
AMD are soon to bring out APU's that are mid level dGPU fast, that is a strategy and yes Nvidia have already seen it coming, never mind AMD being a mortal threat to Intel and Qualcomm being an emerging threat to X86 Nvidia are a mortal threat to all of it, they wish to be the once monopolising the entire space and in time they will, congratulations we got exactly what we asked for if we were aware of it or not.
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Problem is that it was apparently meant to be out already. AMD repeatedly having delays with their GPU products is a big problem IMHO. This is an ideal OEM product because of form factor advantages,but AMD despite having historically low debt and much more resources still has issues with cadences. It is the same with some of their AI dGPUs - there were delays in getting enough volume out.

Nvidia and their competitors don't have these issues. They need to focus on making less dGPU products and launching them on time - after all Polaris had 30% share of the market but it was a more OEM focussed product. Trying to go after the "high end" when AMD can't match Nvidia and also an area which has much lower volume,seems an enormous waste of resources. I would rather they had less models,but launched them on time with frequent updates. This is what they did with Zen.

Even with chiplets,they could do the same with dGPUs. Make something that could be used in a Strix Halo type product with stacked V-Cache. Then re-use that chiplet as the basis of a mainstream dGPU. That way they can develope less dGPUs and re-use them in more markets. That would give you economies of scale and amortisation of costs.

Also,AMD had a potentially good ARM core,called the K15,which Jim Keller was involved with. Instead of putting all their eggs into an X86 shaped basket,I don't see how they can't adapt the existing core technologies into an ARM based chip. It's not like ARM or X86 chips are massively different in many ways now. AMD is just boxing themselves in for no reason - they should be also trying to get into that ARM market too.

AMD is after all one of the few companies that has the ability to do all of this.
 
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Intel are the walking dead and AMD will not survive an onslaught by Nvidia, K15 or no K15, AMD thinks its best strategy is to team up with Intel on X86, the problem for them with that is AMD need to back off a bit or they will inadvertently kill Intel off.
 
I think during AMD's almost bankrupt years (and yes, that is plural), there was one time when the wrote off something a few $10s million on one of the first APUs.

Ever since they have been very cautious with volumes - far too cautious IMO.

CAT's OEM comments make a lot of sense, but I wonder if their whole "we are not budget brand" thing doesn't hurt them too.

Setting an initial price unrealistically high is a dangerous strategy for DIY (those bad initial reviews - added bonus if there are some issues at launch), but unless OEM see totally different prices, it is also a loosing strategy for OEM volume sales.

For Radeon OEM's already see next to no requests, so if the initial prices are far to close to Nvidia, plus AMD's OEM relationship and OEM support is far worse, and if OEMs only see decent prices after AMD have yet again had to climb down from the lofty height of their not-a-budget-brand cloud. Well, while OEMs love cheaper prices, most are probably not willing or able to take any left-overs at the end of a product's lifespan.

RDNA2 was actually a very very good generation (I recently picked up a 6800 for £240 inc warranty from a certain high-street vendor of used parts), but RDNA3 was a mess. The "we will do chiplet for mid-range" idea is probably up there with "we co-invented HBM but have no pro GPUs which actually can use, so we will do a - 4GB max - gaming card instead". Just a very poor strategic blunder IMO.
 
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humbug said:
@gpuerrilla you're now paying £750 for a ##70 class card, let that sit in your mind for a while and then question why everyone is talking about how people think AMD are the only ones who can do something about that.
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The only response I can give you is funnily enough AMD are held account to do something about the prices yet all you have to do is frequent here and see that even if the product is decent people will buy the same old nvidia equivalent anyway. Its why the joke always was "..so I can get my nvidia card cheaper"! :)

It is up to the consumer to educate and work it out. You wont be able to win over many folk and shouldn't expect to. The danger is though they dip out. The price now of the 7800 being £430 is OK so in the scheme of this is offering something to people who would buy the ##70 class card?

My mate who bought a pc at the start of covid is upgrading right now, and because he had an AMD gpu in there already asked me if the 7800XT was his fit. This alone has good merit and judging by your own experience of the 7800XT shows its really a viable alternative to the 60/70s.
 
The problem with being labelled "The budget Brand" is no mater how unintentional it is derogatory, AMD hate that label because the truth is for a lot of people being seen as "Budget" is a huge put off, no one wants to be seen owning a "budget" anything, this is why AMD rage against it and people like Steve Walton would do well to employ some critical thinking once in a while before opening his stupid mouth, he's not doing the stereo typical view of Australians a good service.
 
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gpuerrilla said:
The only response I can give you is funnily enough AMD are held account to do something about the prices yet all you have to do is frequent here and see that even if the product is decent people will buy the same old nvidia equivalent anyway. Its why the joke always was "..so I can get my nvidia card cheaper"! :)

It is up to the consumer to educate and work it out. You wont be able to win over many folk and shouldn't expect to. The danger is though they dip out. The price now of the 7800 being £430 is OK so in the scheme of this is offering something to people who would buy the ##70 class card?

My mate who bought a pc at the start of covid is upgrading right now, and because he had an AMD gpu in there already asked me if the 7800XT was his fit. This alone has good merit and judging by your own experience of the 7800XT shows its really a viable alternative to the 60/70s.
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Its what 20% cheaper than the 4070 S.... for all that it lacks vs that card i think it works out as the better option, if you really want or need the faster RT and DLSS then pay 20% more, if not its a really good card.

The problem with expecting AMD to be much cheaper than that vs Nvidia, always no matter what, is that this is exactly how Nvidia killed ATI, if Steve Walton thinks AMD should always be 40% cheaper then pretty soon you don't have an AMD because at that point you're selling at a loss and if Nvidia chose to really make that hurt AMD Steve Walton has given them the tools to do that because the man is a blunt idiot with no critical thinking ability.
 
humbug said:
Its what 20% cheaper than the 4070 S.... for all that it lacks vs that card i think it works out as the better option, if you really want or need the faster RT and DLSS then pay 20% more, if not its a really good card.

The problem with expecting AMD to be much cheaper than that vs Nvidia, always no matter what, is that this is exactly how Nvidia killed ATI, if Steve Walton thinks AMD should always be 40% cheaper then pretty soon you don't have an AMD because at that point you're selling at a loss and if Nvidia chose to really make that hurt AMD Steve Walton has given them the tools to do that because the man is a blunt idiot with no critical thinking ability.
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What I gleaned from your feedback was really insane. Its RT is actually beating the 60's and on par with the 70? I mean when its that case there is little point in entertaining the competitor unless your really committed to the "features". :)

This is where AMD need to double down. Get the x800 card cemented as the better mid range card and should be trying to push them with a ryzen bundle to accumulate massive momentum.
 
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gpuerrilla said:
What I gleaned from your feedback was really insane. Its RT is actually beating the 60's and on par with the 70? I mean when its that case there is little point in entertaining the competitor unless your really committed to the "features". :)
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I didn't say on par with the 70 class, i actually made the point in the post you quoted that if you want better RT get the 70 class card.

As for the 60, yes. A lot of people find that hard to believe because everyone thinks AMD are just so bad at RT its not worth anything, but yes :)

uyCmypU.png
 
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humbug said:
As for the 60, yes. A lot of people find that hard to believe because everyone thinks AMD are just so bad at RT its not worth anything, but yes :)
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That's the point, all the usual streams/influencers have you believe for RT go nvidia - however in the low end of the stacks its not actually the case at all, very misleading. And where the 70 beats it, well its also another £50-70 extra so its in a great spot to compete at the £400 segment.
 
gpuerrilla said:
That's the point, all the usual streams/influencers have you believe for RT go nvidia - however in the low end of the stacks its not actually the case at all, very misleading. And where the 70 beats it, well its also another £50-70 extra so its in a great spot to compete at the £400 segment.
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Yep, if you want RT you need Nvidia. Then you get people going out and buying 8GB 4060Ti and wondering why it literally sucks for gaming. If you want useable RT at 1440p you need 4070 or 7800XT and above.
 
Those relative RT performance charts are very misleading. Any game with even moderate levels of RT and AMD cards get hit harder than a ginger haired stepchild.

They do OK and to be fair even the mid range Nvidia card suffer. But still, AMD need to see at least a 20% relative improvement in RT performance for the 8800XT. So if it matches a 7900 XTX in raster, it needs to be at least 20% and closer to 30% faster in RT.
 
ICDP said:
Those relative RT performance charts are very misleading. Any game with even moderate levels of RT and AMD cards get hit harder than a ginger haired stepchild.

They do OK and to be fair even the mid range Nvidia card suffer. But still, AMD need to see at least a 20% relative improvement in RT performance for the 8800XT. So if it matches a 7900 XTX in raster, it needs to be at least 20% and closer to 30% faster in RT.
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harder than a ginger haired stepchild lol
 
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