The big RPG problem.

Teki187 · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:21

So I've been playing a lot of RPGS recently, there my favourite genre and I'm passionate about it.

Anyway, I'm currently working my way through the witcher enhanced and it hit me, why are RPGS always always missing the mark.

Take oblivion for example, alright graphics, free open world and good first person combat style. It was only let down by bad programing, bad leveling and bad story.

Lets now take its follow up, Fallout 3, that improved graphics, AI and the questing system but it still lacked horribly in the leveling, the quests and shortness of the main story.

So lets look back and see what did things right.

Well Baulders gate is a good start. Great long story, great graphics for the time, lots of characters and a leveling system that worked. This was only really hindered by what i feel is a "difficult" to understand D&D rule set.

So what has gone wrong? Why are we left with the "left over" bits of the RPG genre? Why do so many RPG games have such great potential for them to be squashed? What is the major failing point of them?

Shamikebab · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:25

What's wrong with Fallout 3's levelling?

Teki187 · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:27

Shamikebab said:
What's wrong with Fallout 3's levelling?

Its too short, to simple, you don't feel like leveling adds anything to your character.

LeJosh · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:28

Saying oblivion and fallout 3 had a bad story is down to opinion. I liked the story especially with a lot of it's side-quests story lines. On both games.

Dist · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:28

Personaly i thought the leveling system was fine. Because you can reach max level before doing everything, it encouraged me to not try and do everything in one go, and instead create a new character that does things differently, and explores places i havn't gone to before.

Teki187 · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:28

LeJosh said:
Saying oblivion and fallout 3 had a bad story is down to opinion. I liked the story especially with a lot of it's side-quests story lines. On both games.

The story in oblivion is ok, its just too short. Remove the side quests and you only have about 6 hours of gameplay. Same with fallout 3.

Teki187 · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:30

Dist said:
Personaly i thought the leveling system was fine. Because you can reach max level before doing everything, it encouraged me to not try and do everything in one go, and instead create a new character that does things differently, and explores places i havn't gone to before.

But thats the problem, is the leveling system fine were you dont have much involvement in it, or should we be more involved? Is reaching the max level before getting half way through the main quest good level pacing?

Dist · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:31

Teki187 said:
The story in oblivion is ok, its just too short. Remove the side quests and you only have about 6 hours of gameplay. Same with fallout 3.

This is all down to how you play the game. If you do quest after quest, following it exactly then of course the game wont last long. One of the main advantages to oblivion and fallout 3 is how open it is. There were times when i had a quest to go from A to B, and along the way i spent hours exploring when i could have got to B in under 10 min if i focused on that.

Teki187 said:
But thats the problem, is the leveling system fine were you dont have much involvement in it, or should we be more involved? Is reaching the max level before getting half way through the main quest good level pacing?

Another advantage to these games. If you dont like it, mod it. Nothing stopping you using the editor and tweaking the way the leveling system works so its more the way you want it.

LeJosh · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:32

Teki187 said:
The story in oblivion is ok, its just too short. Remove the side quests and you only have about 6 hours of gameplay. Same with fallout 3.

I think we should look at a lot more RPG's other than bethesda produced ones aswell. Baldur's gate I can't have an opinion, didn't have the luxury of playing it.

Your point about the side quests, they're their though. To help level your character, it adds a lot more chapters to the gaming experience. We can't just say "remove them" you have to take them into account if they're their, which they are.

Phatjayunoi · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:32

I think its the difference between the old school "Isometric" RPGs like the Baldur's Gate, Diablo etc compared to the "First Person" RPGs like Oblivion, Fallout 3 etc. Something along the way just got lost and missing in the process. Two different subgenres of the main RPG genre.

Teki187 · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:33

Dist said:
This is all down to how you play the game. If you do quest after quest, following it exactly then of course the game wont last long. One of the main advantages to oblivion and fallout 3 is how open it is. There were times when i had a quest to go from A to B, and along the way i spent hours exploring when i could have got to B in under 10 min if i focused on that.

I suppose your right, but in the case of oblivion and the leveling aspect of dungeons you pretty much knew what to expect in them, so they were not really exciting. Soon as you exit the training dungeon, go straight ahead to your first aield ruin and from then on you can guess what will always be in them ruins/dungeon.

We really need to see a RPG effectively use physics and the modern tech that most games use now. Examples blocking doors with rocks, chairs, tables etc.

krooton · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:39

Phatjayunoi said:
I think its the difference between the old school "Isometric" RPGs like the Baldur's Gate, Diablo etc compared to the "First Person" RPGs like Oblivion, Fallout 3 etc. Something along the way just got lost and missing in the process. Two different subgenres of the main RPG genre.

Don't group BG and Diablo just coz of their viewpoint!

Diablo was hack n slash with leveling.

BG is just one of the best games ever made

krooton · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:40

Teki187 said:
I suppose your right, but in the case of oblivion and the leveling aspect of dungeons you pretty much knew what to expect in them, so they were not really exciting. Soon as you exit the training dungeon, go straight ahead to your first aield ruin and from then on you can guess what will always be in them ruins/dungeon.

We really need to see a RPG effectively use physics and the modern tech that most games use now. Examples blocking doors with rocks, chairs, tables etc.

NWN2 improved with FPS style collision detection?

howthe · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:43

The main issue is they all want to be pretty!

An RPG is supposed to immerse the player into that world, however most games companies now put graphics first.

With an RPG the story should be first, then character development, then in game rules such as combat. Graphics, while important should be near the end of the list.

Personally I'd rather play an isometric style RPG with a great story than a real life looking game with a bad story!

Teki187 · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:44

krooton said:
NWN2 improved with FPS style collision detection?

But how long had CD been in previous games for RPGS to take it on? Its like the genre is always playing catch up.

Another good example is The Witcher.

Sadly i have no desire at all to play it. I'm on chapter 3 and I've just read that up until chapter 5 you don't go to any new places outside the castle.

How can you base half a game confined to a castle?

platypus · 29 Jan 2009 at 15:49

The definitive RPG for me has still been Neverwinter Nights, closely followed by Baldurs Gate II.

krooton · 29 Jan 2009 at 16:00

Teki187 said:
But how long had CD been in previous games for RPGS to take it on? Its like the genre is always playing catch up.

Another good example is The Witcher.

Sadly i have no desire at all to play it. I'm on chapter 3 and I've just read that up until chapter 5 you don't go to any new places outside the castle.

How can you base half a game confined to a castle?

Well, The Witcher Enhanced Edition is one of the most enjoyable games I've played

The castle also has 2 distinct sections, not including the old town and the 2 other areas you will spend time in.

I need to start playing the extra content that came with my game!

Teki187 · 29 Jan 2009 at 16:02

krooton said:
Well, The Witcher Enhanced Edition is one of the most enjoyable games I've played

The castle also has 2 distinct sections, not including the old town and the 2 other areas you will spend time in.

I need to start playing the extra content that came with my game!

But your spending the entire game in the castle!?

Thats not story telling or playing a RPG.

What happened to moving across a massive map with varied environments and monsters of different types and species?

Antar Bolaeisk · 29 Jan 2009 at 16:05

Teki187 said:
But how long had CD been in previous games for RPGS to take it on? Its like the genre is always playing catch up.

Another good example is The Witcher.

Sadly i have no desire at all to play it. I'm on chapter 3 and I've just read that up until chapter 5 you don't go to any new places outside the castle.

How can you base half a game confined to a castle?

Because it has a really good storyline?

I honestly didn't think i'd like this game due to the combat system but it's just so engrossing

Langlest · 29 Jan 2009 at 16:05

my favorite rpg is bg2, i think the problem today is that when they make a game they try to make it appeal to everyone so they focus on how they can add action elements.

i dont have a problem with this as i loved what they did with the combat in oblivion but i just wish they hadnt removed so much of what made morrowind good
i think they see a game as being more appealing to the mainstream if you can learn everything about it in 30mins