The cost of not upgrading to a 5870

[r0cky]

Its going to happen purely because AMD/Intel are moving gpu's onto the cpu die, where they will need powergating options, which will simply crossover and be used in their discrete products also.

I like to see it happen to save me electricity, that will save money and CO2 emissions.
All these iterations of GPUs and still they can't power-down properly when in desktop use.

 

[Sasahara]

I think you both need to change the calculators battery.

What's wrong with my calculator? o_O

 

[Rroff]

I thought it was quite good but I didn't realise that it's that low.

I wonder if the 5850 that I've ordered will still down clock at idle with 2 monitors connected, as the 260 that I have doesn't.

If you play with the multi display/mixed GPU acceleration setting you should be able to get it to drop to low power clocks on both cards when idle... tho that might be at the expense of functionality depending on your setup.

 

[Big.Wayne]

Not really. Most of the carbon footprint comes from making and shipping the thing in the first place. In terms of carbon footprint, it's almost always best to just stick with what you have, until such time as the carbon saved over the lifetime of the new product vs. the older product outweighs the carbon cost of making the new one, which I imagine would take a while, longer than most people on here keep a graphics card anyway.

Sorry nightwish I don't agree.

Yes your right in as much as there is plenty of waste in the production and shipping of the new technology however this is more than offset by the much leaner power useage. Please bare in mind that for every single kWh that is consumed by the end user a further *Two* kWh has been used in delivering that energy to you . . . . i.e 1 kWh used = 3 kWh deducted from the global energy reserve.

I believe new technology that runs on reduced power is to be embraced, not just graphics cards but everything in your PC/household etc, it makes no sense to hold onto the older inefficient/power hungry hardware as in the long run it works out more costly overall!

 

[nightwish]

Sorry nightwish I don't agree.

Yes your right in as much as there is plenty of waste in the production and shipping of the new technology however this is more than offset by the much leaner power useage. Please bare in mind that for every single kWh that is consumed by the end user a further *Two* kWh has been used in delivering that energy to you . . . . i.e 1 kWh used = 3 kWh deducted from the global energy reserve.

Any inefficiencies in transferring electricity to your home apply just as much transferring that electricity to the factory to make the cards to begin with.

I believe new technology that runs on reduced power is to be embraced, not just graphics cards but everything in your PC/household etc, it makes no sense to hold onto the older inefficient/power hungry hardware as in the long run it works out more costly overall!

I guess unless you can quote a source for any of that, we'll have to agree to disagree. While I can't find any figures for manufacturing PC parts, there are many articles around explaining why it's greener to hang on to an old car than buy a new, more efficient, one. See here and here.

It's not just inefficiencies in the manufacturing you have to worry about. The oil to make the plastics has to drilled out of the ground, the metal mined and purified. All the raw materials need to be moved around the world. Maybe you've seen that article about how many miles the average Christmas dinner has done. It's the same with manufacturing. This has a big impact.

It may sooth your consience to buy new, more efficient things, but I question whether it's actually greener.

 

[Calneon]

I have a GTX280 and an i7 920 at 4Ghz on 12 hours a day gaming for about 3-4 a day. Thank god I don't pay the bills at home and i'm off to uni in a few days so no bills there either.

 

[Big.Wayne]

Any inefficiencies in transferring electricity to your home apply just as much transferring that electricity to the factory to make the cards to begin with.

The viewpoint you are trying to get across is one where everyone drops out of modern society and live in the forests like a druid . . . which is a valid viewpoint but most likey unworkable. Production has to continue to feed the consumers because if people don't have anything to buy the whole financial system breaks down . . .

I guess unless you can quote a source for any of that, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Obviously common-sense is the source!

I am advocating the replacement of inefficient hardware which is not entirely the same as the car manufacturing ideal/links you seem to be fixing on. Yes the production of a graphics card does incur a carbon debt but simple logic leads me to conclude that this debt will be paid off quite quickly. Interestingly in the links you provided it advocated the purchase of used goods as these effectively come without a carbon debt (the debt is on the original owner), not sure how that works exactly but it's something I've not thought about before so good food for thought!

I'm not ready to agree to disagree yet, we are only just starting and I wanna here all you have to say on the subject so I can understand your viewpoint better!

It may sooth your consience to buy new, more efficient things, but I question whether it's actually greener.

Without dropping out of modern society for Druid life I see no better option than for each and every individual to become aware of their own carbon footprint and do whatever they can to reduce the rate of their energy consumption. I am one of the small minority of geeks on this forum that has been trying to raise awareness of the problem and draw peoples attention to how much power a computer can use and I have been waiting for approx 18 months for the release of new graphics cards that feature a hybrid power saving mode which idles on quite low wattage, its a problem that has been obvious to me for some time and I can't tell you how happy I am to see not only these LV products turning up at last but also the fact a lot more people are into it and see the benefits for themselves!

Now I would remind you this is a computer hardware enthusiasts forum and we are having this discussion in a thread about the Radeon HD 5870 which is a new graphics card (not a car), I don't see there is much scope to take this debate further as not many people will appreciate the prospect of being told not to buy it (or other manufactured goods) and instead return to nature for an utterly eco friendly life!

I've not spoken to you before and can't say I've seen you post much about hardware but in the context of this thread I urge you to go and do your homework regarding Graphics Cards and their Energy-Usage and you will see what a decent step in the right direction these new AMD Evergreen products are and I think everyone who really needs a awesome graphics card should buy one, even better they should buy one in several months used

 

[nightwish]

I'm a little busy in real life at the moment so you'll forgive me if arguing on the Internet isn't my biggest priority.

Having said that, I'd just like to address a few points.

I'm not advocating any way of life, nor am I telling anyone they shouldn't buy anything. I'm just interested in the facts. I'm merely pointing out that an opinion presented as fact is still an opinion until and unless you have something to corroborate your point of view.

common-sense

simple logic

You have still failed to actually say anything concrete. Explain your thought processes and the calculations and trade-offs you must be making in coming up with these assumptions.

I am advocating the replacement of inefficient hardware which is not entirely the same as the car manufacturing ideal/links you seem to be fixing on.

Merely an example, since a quick Google didn't turn up much regarding PC hardware, although I would think the economies of manufacturing would be broadly similar regardless.

I'm not ready to agree to disagree yet, we are only just starting and I wanna here all you have to say on the subject so I can understand your viewpoint better!

I don't see there is much scope to take this debate further

Make up your mind!

I've not spoken to you before and can't say I've seen you post much about hardware

No, I guess I must be clueless because I don't have a huge post count.

I am one of the small minority of geeks on this forum that has been trying to raise awareness of the problem and draw peoples attention to how much power a computer can use

I fully support your position for advocating greener more efficient hardware and I wouldn't want our discussion to obscure the message. I too am concerned about my carbon footprint.

That certainly doesn't stop me buying new hardware, although it does mean that I have an atom-based server for my downloading and web-browsing purposes and only switch on my main rig when I need to.

I am just saying that there is more to your carbon footprint than the simple power usage of the hardware once it's in your computer and the costs of putting it there in the first place are significant.

 

[DarkMatter]

so with the ver brutal maths invovled (at night i thought electricty was cheaper too....) i run my pc for 6hrs a day instead of 24.... so i only save like £40 a year, thats not taking into account the several months a year i am not on my pc lol.

Also the load powers are not drastically diffrent which is the state my pc is in when i'm on it .

 

[Big.Wayne]

I'm a little busy in real life at the moment so you'll forgive me if arguing on the Internet isn't my biggest priority.

Sorry that doesn't cut it, if you feel strongly about a subject then you should be prepared to *debate* . . . .especially if you enter a conversation with a viewpoint that goes against the grain of the topic

You have still failed to actually say anything concrete. Explain your thought processes and the calculations and trade-offs you must be making in coming up with these assumptions

It's really not that complicated and I'm not quite sure why you are dragging your heels. If you have two products that perform the same task but one of them is designed to run on much lower power then it should be obvious which one is more appropriate. You may have noticed that 100w lightbulbs have been slowly but surely replaced by energy efficient 10w versions so in my book that's progress in the right direction. You however on the back of a few google articles regarding motor vehicles have decided either everyone would be better off keeping their inefficient graphics cards than replacing them with something much more efficient and less power hungry . . .

I fully support your position for advocating greener more efficient hardware and I wouldn't want our discussion to obscure the message

You absolutely do not support my position "for advocating greener more efficient hardware" and your contribution to this thread has been an attempt to muddle the message. I'm sure you mean well but your not helping one bit.

No, I guess I must be clueless because I don't have a huge post count.

Please don't twist my words for your own convenience. I wasn't suggesting your postcount has anything to do with this subject, what I was saying is I have never seen you post anything about hardware or eco computing before but lo and behold here you are in a thread about low powered graphics cards taking up a position that is at odds with the general theme.

I am just saying that there is more to your carbon footprint than the simple power usage of the hardware once it's in your computer and the costs of putting it there in the first place are significant.

I know this but it doesn't change anything I have stated. My message was very simple while yours was not clear at all

I am saying that if you are gonna purchase a product and have the choice between two items which perform the same task but one of them can achieve its function using much lower power than thats the best option, as far as Manufactured Goods go it is *clearly* the lesser of two evils from an ECO perspective

What you are saying is this, don't buy any manufactured goods or stick with the old inefficient technology!

In the context of this thread nightwish you are at odds with the general theme, you are most likely not gonna change your position no matter what you read so I guess I will be bumping heads with you a lot in these forums.

Thanks for reminding everyone about Carbon-Debt but if your gonna post again please offer up a Workable Viewpoint that people can act on!

 

[RizlaKing]

All this enviromental stuff is nice but c'mon guys your on a hardware forum that is more about performance hardware and getting the most performance from your pc then carbon footprints. While i like to be green if i can i like good performing hardware and if it comes to a choice between performance and being green sorry i am going performance everytime.

No doubt i am being selfish but you know what i don't care we all have enough hassles to deal with daily without bringing them into our hobbys and as my pc is my main hobby as i am housebound i will forgo any other consideration to have some fun on it. I do recycle really well though so i am happy. I am waiting for the X2 to come out and then snap one of those huge beastys up for some good fun .

Thanks to the op nice info there and something different on the forum .

 

[Big.Wayne]

All this enviromental stuff is nice but c'mon guys your on a hardware forum that is more about performance hardware and getting the most performance from your pc then carbon footprints

I'll think you will find RizlaKing this thread covers both angles, that is a) getting some great performance from your graphics card and b)Reducing your running costs £££

The Carbon Footprint concern is an optional extra thrown in for free!

While i like to be green if i can i like good performing hardware and if it comes to a choice between performance and being green sorry i am going performance everytime

Well luckily for all of us we now have the option to purchase hardware that offers great performance while at the same time offering greatly reduced running costs £££

No doubt i am being selfish but you know what i don't care we all have enough hassles to deal with daily without bringing them into our hobbys

Your personal ethos isn't what is being discussed here and doesn't fall into the scope of this thread. Even if you don't acknowledge the links between AMD Evergreen and the Eco benefits it may bring at the very least you cannot ignore cold hard cash £££

simple put RizlaKing, you have the choice between a product that offers great performance but is costly to run and another newer product that also offers great performance but is cheaper to run . . . . faced with the prospect of having an extra [£50/£100/£150] in your back burner at xmas it doesn't take a genius to work out which product you will likely buy!

[edit] Saving will vary depending on personal hardware configuration

 

[Nelly]

Another thing to note, AM3/X58 uses 30w to 40w more power than P55.

When I switch over my system to P55/i5 750 & 5870 I'll save about 70w.

 

[Big.Wayne]

How long is your system running Nelly?

24/7 or

 

[Indy500]

I'm using a passively cooled ATI Radeon 9200SE that draws less than 10 watts on the desktop, and a processor that throttles to 800mhz when idle (5 watts). I also don't run 24/7. Do I get a cookie Wayne?

 

[Big.Wayne]

Do I get a cookie Wayne?

Yes you do and you can buy them yourself with the money £££ you saved on electricty bills heh!

btw: There is some situations where people need to run a machine 24/7 and their is nothing wrong with that, I only asked Nelly about his usage as I was gonna work out approximately how much of an Annual saving £££ he would make!

[edit] I apologize to everyone (inc nightwish & RizlaKing) if this thread drifted a little. The point about Carbon Footprints is not of major interest to a lot of people reading this thread but I felt it was worth mentioning. I didn't expect to enter deep debate on the subject heh!

 

[Indy500]

Yes you do and you can buy them yourself with the money £££ you saved on electricty bills heh!

Well I don't actually need to run 24/7 for any particular reason, I downgraded from a Core 2 Duo setup because I don't use its capabilities any more, and needed the £££. Electricity cost saving was a secondary benefit. As it happens the economy 7 tariff makes it advantageous for me to use the system at night...

 

[Nelly]

How long is your system running Nelly?

24/7 or

Btw thanks for the info on Camera, forgot to e-mail back.

As for my system depends, if I'm working as I use my PC no more than 30 hours Monday to Friday & maybe 10 hours at the weekend if I've been out etc so 40 hours total.

Unemployed since June 21st so more like 80 hours in total per week.

I dont leave my PC on when not in use theirs no point whatsoever.

I'm using exactly 200W idle from the PC at the moment, thats with a Phenom II X4 955BE clocked from 3.2GHz to 3.4GHz on stock volts i.e. 1.325v

 

[nightwish]

I guess I will be bumping heads with you a lot in these forums.

No you won't. I realise now that my attempts to enhance your one-dimensional views on eco-friendlyness are doomed to be met with personal attacks and unsupported assertions that seem to be what passes for a rational argument in Wayne land. Also please don't recite back to me what you think I'm saying, you're getting it pretty wrong.

I remember now why I don't post that much on Internet forums. If you'll excuse me, I have a mortgage application to fill out this weekend.

 

[Final8y]

Nothing wrong with Big.Wayne caring.

Focus on the consumer will never work.
The products must contain all the ECO-friendliness features themselves as most people will never be in there behaviour & usage.