Er, what?
How does limiting ES capacity to 4MJ and MGUK power output to 160KW have any restrictive affect at all on the battery or motor technology used?
The F1 2014 season
- Thread starter Merlin5
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Er, what?
How does limiting ES capacity to 4MJ and MGUK power output to 160KW have any restrictive affect at all on the battery or motor technology used?
Have you missed the bit where stored capcity is restricted as well?
Theres no devlopment relevent. They cant store unrestrivppcted amounts, so they cant gather unrestricted amounts.
Motor out put is restricted as well, so what devlopment there? Electeic motors are allready stupidly effecicent, so if your going down the route of doing more with the power available, extremly unlikely.
No I haven't missed it, hence my use of the word 'capacity' 
So your saying there is going to be absolutely no development of smaller, lighter, cooler, more reliable batteries? No possibility of different ES technologies like flywheels or capacitors? No improvements in the efficiency of the MGUK or the MGUH, or reduction in size, weight or cost? No developments of how to use and distribute the stored energy? No exploration of MGUK to MGUH link? No improvements in reliability or packaging? Nothing?
They are just going to make the ERS for the start of testing and then never change them until the regulations are changed again in X years time?
So your saying there is going to be absolutely no development of smaller, lighter, cooler, more reliable batteries? No possibility of different ES technologies like flywheels or capacitors? No improvements in the efficiency of the MGUK or the MGUH, or reduction in size, weight or cost? No developments of how to use and distribute the stored energy? No exploration of MGUK to MGUH link? No improvements in reliability or packaging? Nothing?
They are just going to make the ERS for the start of testing and then never change them until the regulations are changed again in X years time?
Pretty much. This isn't new technology, so efficiency gains like that aren't there. Its not like theres some new miracle material they can just pluck from thin air.
As for batteries, I'm pretty sure they are heavily regulated and the teams just cant go out an stick a new prototype one (which there is many). Not that it would do them much good, and in fact would be worse for them. Although there energy storage is much better. There maximum discharge is about the same, so it would break the rules as they would have to have far more capacity, just to supply the juice.
The rules make it irrelevant to other industries, and development will be slim as they meat the requirements out the box.
As for batteries, I'm pretty sure they are heavily regulated and the teams just cant go out an stick a new prototype one (which there is many). Not that it would do them much good, and in fact would be worse for them. Although there energy storage is much better. There maximum discharge is about the same, so it would break the rules as they would have to have far more capacity, just to supply the juice.
The rules make it irrelevant to other industries, and development will be slim as they meat the requirements out the box.
Not at all.
But there are massive differences between an unrestricted EV and the very restricted f1.
Take protoyoe batteries they have between 2-10times the storage, but would be useless in f1, but very relevant in formula E.
For a start the stored energy in f1 is low and restricted.
Secondly for each cell you have a maximum discharge rate.
So you couldn't just put one f these 5 times more storage capacity batteries in an f1 car and reduce the battery pack size to 1/5. As it wouldn't be able to supply the needed current. So you would need to stick to the same size battery and thus have 5times as much storage, oh wait cant do that in f1.
But in F-E increasing the storage by 5times while maintaing the same physical size battery pack is very relevant. Same as extremely rapid charging is relevant in f-e not in f1. As is recovering as much energy as possible, is relevant in f-e but not in f1(due to these rules)
The devils in the details, plenty of development to be done, just not in f1 due to the rules. There will be a little, but not a lot and the vast majority will be loop hole type development, which is of no interest to anyone else outside f1.
So your saying its impossible for them to make a battery smaller while delivering the same power?
And the 'heavily regulated' ES rules limit the maximum capacity of stored energy, and its location within the chassis. That it. Its not even considered part of the 'Power Unit' in terms of 5 per season. They can swap them in an out at will outside of parc ferme.
I think your "F1 should just be completely unregulated" stance is blurring your vision on this one a bit. You seem to think these ERS rules are so restrictive they are basically a closed single spec system nobody will be devoting any time to developing.
And the 'heavily regulated' ES rules limit the maximum capacity of stored energy, and its location within the chassis. That it. Its not even considered part of the 'Power Unit' in terms of 5 per season. They can swap them in an out at will outside of parc ferme.
I think your "F1 should just be completely unregulated" stance is blurring your vision on this one a bit. You seem to think these ERS rules are so restrictive they are basically a closed single spec system nobody will be devoting any time to developing.
Also...
http://www.fiaformulae.com/guide/specification
Very 'unrestricted'
. The only difference between that and the Formula 1 regulations is FE doesn't have a limit on the batteries capacity, which is understandable given its the primary energy source for the car. Its output and the power of the motor it drives is still regulated, just like F1.
http://www.fiaformulae.com/guide/specification
Very 'unrestricted'
. The only difference between that and the Formula 1 regulations is FE doesn't have a limit on the batteries capacity, which is understandable given its the primary energy source for the car. Its output and the power of the motor it drives is still regulated, just like F1.
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So is F1?
No they arent.
The rules are very much designed around the current battery packs.
Go back to the maximum cell discharge i was talking about.
This is not a problem with f-e as they cant store all the power they need at the moment. So they need more storage from the same sized battery pack.
How do you not get it.
In FE it is electrically powered, even with the power restriction on the motor, they can not power it from recovered energy or from the battery pack, hence car swap.
F1 is petrol powered, the restrictions in place means they can easily recover the energy over a lap to power the rule limitations.
Massive difference, fE has a huge amount of devlopment oppotunities, f1 doesnt.
As well as FE the car has to be charged in ~15-20mins via wirless charging.
And they want the batteires to eventually power it for a race with no car swapping.
So for normal EV
You have relevance and more importnatly devlopment in batteires, recovery, wirless charging & rapid charging
Unlike f1 where they easily get all the power they need and arent allowed to gather any more.
So F1 has relevence in recovery, but not devlopment as they allready recover the maximum allowed.
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Again, you are assuming there is only one possible avenue for development (although bizarrely, now a different avenue than you were going on about a few days ago?).
The F1 rules are not designed around F1 cars being electric vehicles, FE is. Therefore the rules for FE support development of increased and improved batteries. F1 is about hybrids, about recovering energy wasted from petrol engines and feeding it back into the power unit to improve efficency.
Just because F1 has restrictions in an area that FE doesn't (yet), that doesn't mean that F1 is completely closed to development. You are far to focused on 'batteries, batteries, batteries', and miss the development opportunities for hybrid systems the F1 rules promote.
The F1 rules are not designed around F1 cars being electric vehicles, FE is. Therefore the rules for FE support development of increased and improved batteries. F1 is about hybrids, about recovering energy wasted from petrol engines and feeding it back into the power unit to improve efficency.
Just because F1 has restrictions in an area that FE doesn't (yet), that doesn't mean that F1 is completely closed to development. You are far to focused on 'batteries, batteries, batteries', and miss the development opportunities for hybrid systems the F1 rules promote.
I didnt say its completley closed to devlopment. I said any devlopment avenues are not relevent to any other indusrty. Which they arent.
They gather the energy they need, there is no relevent debpvlopment left.
Nearly every other industry wants to gether as much energy as possible. Something the devlopers in f1 cant do.
So yes there are massive differences between f1 and fe those differences make fe very relevnt to other industries.
Not just batteires, theres the energy recovery, which is limited due to the storage and usage rules. There no charging as thats onn track etc etc.
So no my argument hasnt changed at all. And f1 pstill isnt relevent for oypther industries, something you said it was as certain parts they can recover unlimited. But they cant cover unlimited, if they arent allowed to store it
It doesnt matter if fe change it eventually, for the forseable fuuture, FE will allow a multitude of relevent devlopment usefull for other industries. f1 lost this a long time ago and the new Energy recovery unit, does not bring it back.
They gather the energy they need, there is no relevent debpvlopment left.
Nearly every other industry wants to gether as much energy as possible. Something the devlopers in f1 cant do.
So yes there are massive differences between f1 and fe those differences make fe very relevnt to other industries.
Not just batteires, theres the energy recovery, which is limited due to the storage and usage rules. There no charging as thats onn track etc etc.
So no my argument hasnt changed at all. And f1 pstill isnt relevent for oypther industries, something you said it was as certain parts they can recover unlimited. But they cant cover unlimited, if they arent allowed to store it
It doesnt matter if fe change it eventually, for the forseable fuuture, FE will allow a multitude of relevent devlopment usefull for other industries. f1 lost this a long time ago and the new Energy recovery unit, does not bring it back.
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I think the issue is that you appear limited to only seeing full electric cars as a future. The F1 regulations are not about going full electric, they are about hybrid.
Obviously if you limit your scope to full electric development then the current F1 rules are not going to fit with what you consider worthwhile. But that doesn't mean theres no development oportunities.
There is a world of hybrid development opening up for F1, and it is directly transferable to the real world. Developments Mercedes made into the now dropped I4 engine formula have already appeared in their road cars. The McLaren P1, LaFerrari and BMW i8 are flagships for petrol electric hybrids, and adopt a lot of the technology that will appear in F1.
You have made it quite clear that you think full electric is the future on these forums over the last year or so. Some people (including me) will disagree with you on that. But just because you don't think hybrid technology has a future doesn't mean you can dismiss all development avenues for it as being pointless or non existent.
Obviously if you limit your scope to full electric development then the current F1 rules are not going to fit with what you consider worthwhile. But that doesn't mean theres no development oportunities.
There is a world of hybrid development opening up for F1, and it is directly transferable to the real world. Developments Mercedes made into the now dropped I4 engine formula have already appeared in their road cars. The McLaren P1, LaFerrari and BMW i8 are flagships for petrol electric hybrids, and adopt a lot of the technology that will appear in F1.
You have made it quite clear that you think full electric is the future on these forums over the last year or so. Some people (including me) will disagree with you on that. But just because you don't think hybrid technology has a future doesn't mean you can dismiss all development avenues for it as being pointless or non existent.
To be fair I can see where Glaucus is coming from, there is going to be limited development scope for the ERS in F1, because they're not far off (if at all) being able to achieve what they need.
Where F1 had an opportunity to push forward energy storage technology they've wasted it somewhat.
Improve capacity? Not worth spending much on if you already have ample capacity.
Improve discharge capability? Not worth spending much on if you already have ample capacity.
Improve charging capability? Take a guess.
All I can really see being achieved is maybe a shrinking of the technology but if the weight is in a relatively favourable place anyway, which i'm sure they'll strive to do, then additional movable ballast to make minimum weight is only of so much benefit.
Where every car company in the world is going to want to explore ways they can recover as much energy as possible, store as much as possible and then discharge as much as possible in the most useful way possible, F1 has managed to implement restrictions on all these things meaning teams will achieve them and then have no real incentive to better them, meaning no real drive forward in technology.
As Glaucus says, I can only see the money being spent on F1 specific implementations and loopholes, the scope to really drag the technology forward just isn't there. What good is there in spending millions on making a better hybrid system when you've been told you can only collect X amount, store Y amount and then discharge Z amount and you can already do that?
If there was scope to spend millions and gain an advantage, put more power down, save more fuel etc. compared to your rivals, the progress would be immense.
Where F1 had an opportunity to push forward energy storage technology they've wasted it somewhat.
Improve capacity? Not worth spending much on if you already have ample capacity.
Improve discharge capability? Not worth spending much on if you already have ample capacity.
Improve charging capability? Take a guess.
All I can really see being achieved is maybe a shrinking of the technology but if the weight is in a relatively favourable place anyway, which i'm sure they'll strive to do, then additional movable ballast to make minimum weight is only of so much benefit.
Where every car company in the world is going to want to explore ways they can recover as much energy as possible, store as much as possible and then discharge as much as possible in the most useful way possible, F1 has managed to implement restrictions on all these things meaning teams will achieve them and then have no real incentive to better them, meaning no real drive forward in technology.
As Glaucus says, I can only see the money being spent on F1 specific implementations and loopholes, the scope to really drag the technology forward just isn't there. What good is there in spending millions on making a better hybrid system when you've been told you can only collect X amount, store Y amount and then discharge Z amount and you can already do that?
If there was scope to spend millions and gain an advantage, put more power down, save more fuel etc. compared to your rivals, the progress would be immense.
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Weight, cost, and efficiency are the drivers for future development in F1.
The size and weight of the new power units is such an issue that taller drivers are potentially being shunned as they make the car to heavy. Taking 10kg out of the ERS system would be massively beneficial to an F1 team.
But its not like FE regulations are some golden oportunity either. Power output is restricted, energy output from the batteries is restricted, and capacity is restricted by association in that anything more than the 'stint' the cars will run is useless. When FE launches the cars will be able to run to the maximum the regulations allow. Just like F1.
And anyway, the hybrid technology F1 will run as of next year does not exist in main stream cars yet. If in the future that technology does appear, as a result of the developments made by Honda, Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault over the last couple of years, surely that's a success?
The development pathways are already well trodden. Its not a development race that starts March next year, much of the work is already underway. It would only be a failure if nothing developed for F1 makes it to road cars, and I can't see this happening. Admittedly they have hampered themselves by choosing a retarded petrol engine specification, but still.
F1 or FE is not the test bed, its the road to these formula's that is. You won't see FE teams trying out prototype batteries at a race weekend and then blowing them up or ruining out of juice during the race. The developments in the technology will be progressed in the lab and test beds, and when its ready for the track the rules will be amended to accommodate. The FIA are not going to drop the 2 car format and enforce racing on a single charge until the technology is in the cars to do it, are they? The biggest areas of development are before the technology hits the track, not after.
Renault, Mercedes, Ferrari and Honda will improve their technology year on year, each giving the teams the best they can produce at that point in time, before heading back to the development benches to work on making it better. Just because the F1 capacity and output is limited doesn't mean the whole technology is, does it? Its not like Ferrari or Mercedes only produce 2.4l V8s and nothing else, is it? I can't imagine any battery developed to use in FE is only ever going to produce FE regulated amounts of power either. The regulations are there to control the racing, not the technology.
The size and weight of the new power units is such an issue that taller drivers are potentially being shunned as they make the car to heavy. Taking 10kg out of the ERS system would be massively beneficial to an F1 team.
But its not like FE regulations are some golden oportunity either. Power output is restricted, energy output from the batteries is restricted, and capacity is restricted by association in that anything more than the 'stint' the cars will run is useless. When FE launches the cars will be able to run to the maximum the regulations allow. Just like F1.
And anyway, the hybrid technology F1 will run as of next year does not exist in main stream cars yet. If in the future that technology does appear, as a result of the developments made by Honda, Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault over the last couple of years, surely that's a success?
The development pathways are already well trodden. Its not a development race that starts March next year, much of the work is already underway. It would only be a failure if nothing developed for F1 makes it to road cars, and I can't see this happening. Admittedly they have hampered themselves by choosing a retarded petrol engine specification, but still.
F1 or FE is not the test bed, its the road to these formula's that is. You won't see FE teams trying out prototype batteries at a race weekend and then blowing them up or ruining out of juice during the race. The developments in the technology will be progressed in the lab and test beds, and when its ready for the track the rules will be amended to accommodate. The FIA are not going to drop the 2 car format and enforce racing on a single charge until the technology is in the cars to do it, are they? The biggest areas of development are before the technology hits the track, not after.
Renault, Mercedes, Ferrari and Honda will improve their technology year on year, each giving the teams the best they can produce at that point in time, before heading back to the development benches to work on making it better. Just because the F1 capacity and output is limited doesn't mean the whole technology is, does it? Its not like Ferrari or Mercedes only produce 2.4l V8s and nothing else, is it? I can't imagine any battery developed to use in FE is only ever going to produce FE regulated amounts of power either. The regulations are there to control the racing, not the technology.
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Weight, cost and efficiency are comparitively small fry development opportunities compared the strides that F1 could drive hybrid and energy recovery through if they had more scope to gain significant competitive advantages from better technology.
More money would be getting spent if Honda thought they could get a run on Mercedes by finding a way of recovering 5% more energy and using it to save a bit more fuel, whilst Mercedes were throwing millions at a novel approach to storing 10% more energy than anyone else can... etc. etc.
That's not going to happen though, there's no real incentive for the big ideas, the revolutions etc. because the technology is already there to achieve the limits they're allowed to hit, beyond that small weight savings aren't going to give them anywhere near the same return on investment.
I'm not saying it's a complete dead end but at the same time it's a huge wasted opportunity IMO to have really had the leading minds in these fields throwing millions at fantastic new ideas. To me that's where F1 needs to be heading, not only does the technology get a huge boost but you add a bit more technological excitement to things than 'Renault have got a 500g lighter battery this week'.
More money would be getting spent if Honda thought they could get a run on Mercedes by finding a way of recovering 5% more energy and using it to save a bit more fuel, whilst Mercedes were throwing millions at a novel approach to storing 10% more energy than anyone else can... etc. etc.
That's not going to happen though, there's no real incentive for the big ideas, the revolutions etc. because the technology is already there to achieve the limits they're allowed to hit, beyond that small weight savings aren't going to give them anywhere near the same return on investment.
I'm not saying it's a complete dead end but at the same time it's a huge wasted opportunity IMO to have really had the leading minds in these fields throwing millions at fantastic new ideas. To me that's where F1 needs to be heading, not only does the technology get a huge boost but you add a bit more technological excitement to things than 'Renault have got a 500g lighter battery this week'.
I'd say the developments in hybrid technology that have already been made in producing the engines for next year is justification enough in itself. If the FIA announced after the first race that in 2015 F1 will go back to the old 2.4 V8s then the engine manufacturers aren't just going to forget everything they have learnt.
Its not the goal posts themselves that drive development, as you have said the teams will be able to fulfill the regulations from day one, its the moving of the goalposts that drives technology.
The FE rules are new, they have driven development to fulfill those rules as the technology didn't exist. As soon as its raced, that technology is redundant and the FIA need to push to progress the rules to keep people developing to chase them. The same will happen in F1, but in other ways. The fuel allowance is going to be reduced year on year, so being able to just about complete a race on 100kg of fuel in 2014 wont cut it in 2015, the technology will need to be developed. The ERS restrictions will move with it too. We have had 4 years of 400KJ/60KW, now we move to 4MJ/120KW. In a few years that will move again. Just like in a few years FE cars will be expected to run a whole race on a single charge. The development needed to make an FE car last a whole race will happen before that technology turns a wheel in competition, just like the development needed to allow F1 cars to run to the 2014 regulations is already happening.
The technology being raced is nearer the end of the development lifecycle than the start.
Of course the FIA could stifle the whole thing by implementing a freeze on the technology like they did with the V8s, but theres no sign of this yet. If anything FE is going to suffer more from this until a few years in when there are multiple manufacturers on the grid.
Energy in an out of the MGUH attached to the turbo is unlimited, as is energy transferred from the MGUH to the MGUK or vice versa. The restrictions are on the power of the motor, and the energy that goes between it and the battery. If you can use the direct link between the turbo and the motor to provide efficiency gains, then you are free to do so. And if this saves you fuel and therefore weight, even better.
Its not the goal posts themselves that drive development, as you have said the teams will be able to fulfill the regulations from day one, its the moving of the goalposts that drives technology.
The FE rules are new, they have driven development to fulfill those rules as the technology didn't exist. As soon as its raced, that technology is redundant and the FIA need to push to progress the rules to keep people developing to chase them. The same will happen in F1, but in other ways. The fuel allowance is going to be reduced year on year, so being able to just about complete a race on 100kg of fuel in 2014 wont cut it in 2015, the technology will need to be developed. The ERS restrictions will move with it too. We have had 4 years of 400KJ/60KW, now we move to 4MJ/120KW. In a few years that will move again. Just like in a few years FE cars will be expected to run a whole race on a single charge. The development needed to make an FE car last a whole race will happen before that technology turns a wheel in competition, just like the development needed to allow F1 cars to run to the 2014 regulations is already happening.
The technology being raced is nearer the end of the development lifecycle than the start.
Of course the FIA could stifle the whole thing by implementing a freeze on the technology like they did with the V8s, but theres no sign of this yet. If anything FE is going to suffer more from this until a few years in when there are multiple manufacturers on the grid.
Energy in an out of the MGUH attached to the turbo is unlimited, as is energy transferred from the MGUH to the MGUK or vice versa. The restrictions are on the power of the motor, and the energy that goes between it and the battery. If you can use the direct link between the turbo and the motor to provide efficiency gains, then you are free to do so. And if this saves you fuel and therefore weight, even better.
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Where I see the problem with it is that we've just moved the goalposts, which as you say is what drives development, but I don't think they've been moved far enough. They're easy to achieve with current relatively well developed technology.
I don't think producing the ERS for 2014 really has driven much development in the grand scheme of things, they've simply had to pick up a few 'off the shelf' ideas and repackage them a bit (yes this is a simplification but i'm sure you can see what i'm getting at). The battery tech is already up to standard, the motors are already up to standard etc.
The goalposts could have been set that much further IMO, to really stretch these guys, give them something to attack and achieve and force some competitive development to keep up with each other.
To use a crude metaphor, it's almost like asking BMW to make a 2.0 diesel that can achieve 30MPG for a few years, then saying 'Ha, well make one that'll do 40MPG then!' when they've already got the tech kicking around to do 50MPG anyway, it's better, but it hasn't stretched them or really given them scope to push beyond a comfort zone.
I don't think producing the ERS for 2014 really has driven much development in the grand scheme of things, they've simply had to pick up a few 'off the shelf' ideas and repackage them a bit (yes this is a simplification but i'm sure you can see what i'm getting at). The battery tech is already up to standard, the motors are already up to standard etc.
The goalposts could have been set that much further IMO, to really stretch these guys, give them something to attack and achieve and force some competitive development to keep up with each other.
To use a crude metaphor, it's almost like asking BMW to make a 2.0 diesel that can achieve 30MPG for a few years, then saying 'Ha, well make one that'll do 40MPG then!' when they've already got the tech kicking around to do 50MPG anyway, it's better, but it hasn't stretched them or really given them scope to push beyond a comfort zone.
If the technology already existed to make batteries hold 10 times the power but be the same size as current KERS batteries, why are current KERS batteries not 1/10th the size they are now?
Hundreds of millions has been spent on developing the new units. If the technology existed, why were the regulations pushed back a year?
Other than in a few flagship road or race cars, which themselves have cost millions to develop, where does this technology exist 'off the shelf'? I can't even think of another system anywhere that charges batteries from turbos?
Hundreds of millions has been spent on developing the new units. If the technology existed, why were the regulations pushed back a year?
Other than in a few flagship road or race cars, which themselves have cost millions to develop, where does this technology exist 'off the shelf'? I can't even think of another system anywhere that charges batteries from turbos?