The Great Big FFP Debate

Bigpig said:
The figures are only showing the playing squad. 30 odd players. Which other clubs are wrong give me links. Back it up
Click to expand...
No, those figures are figures that have been plucked out of the sky. Man City have 519 employees in total, if as you believe and their 30 odd players only account for £200m of their wagebill then that would mean the other 490 City employees, mostly made up of the part-time stewards, the cleaners, groundsmen, the burger flippers in the food kiosks etc, earn on average £450k per year :D

And I've not checked every clubs accounts but I can very quickly tell you that all the top sides in that table pay far more than the figures in that table. Liverpool's accounts for last season aren't released yet however their 21/22 accounts can be found here and they paid over £360m in wages and Utd's for last season are here and they paid £330m in wages.
 
That website doesn’t account for bonuses and some basic salaries have been verified.

But what you are saying is the fat cats have even bigger wages bills than the ones I posted!!!

Thank you.
 
Bigpig said:
That website doesn’t account for bonuses and some basic salaries have been verified.

But what you are saying is the fat cats have even bigger wages bills than the ones I posted!!!

Thank you.
Click to expand...
What I'm saying is you're posting completely made up inaccurate figures.
 
BaZ87 said:
What I'm saying is you're posting completely made up inaccurate figures.
Click to expand...
Wages including bonuses is nearly impossible to track correctly. The numbers posted get you roughly into the ball park of average basic salary for the playing squad.

I wouldn’t like to see the wage bill for say Chelsea and Mancity youth academy. Or accounting wage bills :D

And beside we are nick picking over some numbers I pulled from a website to show current wage bills.

The studies are out there. Wage bills is the biggest contributor to success.
 
Bigpig said:
Wages including bonuses is nearly impossible to track correctly. The numbers posted get you roughly into the ball park of average basic salary for the playing squad.

I wouldn’t like to see the wage bill for say Chelsea and Mancity youth academy. Or accounting wage bills :D

And beside we are nick picking over some numbers I pulled from a website to show current wage bills.

The studies are out there. Wage bills is the biggest contributor to success.
Click to expand...
What on earth? Wages including bonuses are impossible to track, even though clubs publish total pay (including bonuses) but you think finding out wages excluding bonuses is possible, when no such figures are published?

And it's not nitpicking (or nick picking) to point out that the figures you posted are so wildly wrong. We're not talking about 5% or 10% out, some of the figures are 100% out.

I'm well aware of the studies around the correlation between wages and success but if you're going to use figures to back up your point then try to use accurate figures. They're not hard to get hold of as clubs publish them and if you're really concerned about non football wages, use the great Swiss Ramble's 80-90% guide. It's far more accurate than made up figures.
 
BaZ87 said:
What on earth? Wages including bonuses are impossible to track, even though clubs publish total pay (including bonuses) but you think finding out wages excluding bonuses is possible, when no such figures are published?

And it's not nitpicking (or nick picking) to point out that the figures you posted are so wildly wrong. We're not talking about 5% or 10% out, some of the figures are 100% out.

I'm well aware of the studies around the correlation between wages and success but if you're going to use figures to back up your point then try to use accurate figures. They're not hard to get hold of as clubs publish them and if you're really concerned about non football wages, use the great Swiss Ramble's 80-90% guide. It's far more accurate than made up figures.
Click to expand...
Do these figures give you a complete breakdown of individual wages and bonuses?

What do they classify as playing squad. Full youth academy? Coaches? Or just the players who seen first team action and involved weekly?
 
Bigpig said:
Do these figures give you a complete breakdown of individual wages and bonuses?

What do they classify as playing squad. Full youth academy? Coaches? Or just the players who seen first team action and involved weekly?
Click to expand...
No, no such figures are published which is why it's impossible for anybody to claim they know what someone's "basic salary" is, excluding rare examples when contracts have been leaked. Furthermore the whole basic salary point when comparing between clubs is a load of nonsense as clubs will have hugely differing wage structures. For example Liverpool used to have a hugely incentivised wage structure with relatively low basic pay but lots of tiered bonuses. Roberto's Firmino's contract was leaked by football leaks and he earned something like £60k per week iirc but then received x amount per goal for his first 5(?) goals then it would get progressively more the more he scored up to the point that he was earning more per goal than he was in his basic wage. You cannot compare that to a more standardised contract where a player may receive a higher basic salary and modest goal bonus.

And Swiss Ramble's guide is for the first team squad and key staff so circa 25-30 players and a few staff.
 
jaybee said:
If we made it unlimited surely the gaps between teams would just continue and gather exponentially until City were so far ahead and dominant
Click to expand...

Well it's not really any different to how it's always been. Let's be honest there are 3 or 4 clubs and the rest are filler. What is the point of supporting a club in the premier league in my lifetime that isn't Liverpool, United, Chelsea or Arsenal. FFP or not you can't play at the top table consistently for long. If Everton produced the best crop of players ever to set foot on uk soil and they won the league next year, those players would still be taken from them by the richer clubs every single year they did it. Hope doesn't even exist anymore. It never did, I just refused to notice it. Sure some clubs got seriously wealthy owners in the PL era but they have locked that down with crude FFP.

If Everton produce the best forward ever seen and had the money to match or double the wages of any offered by any other club they couldn't spend it if they had it. It's a dead competition, a lock out. One that has taken cheating to try to join the top table.

Bring in a wage cap regardless of revenue and have an actual level playing field.

Shamikebab said:
Just forget the football, lets just compare bank accounts and hand out trophies based on that
Click to expand...

Might as well, it's always been about that in my lifetime apart from one year. Then that club got stripped of talent.
 
dannyjo22 said:
Well it's not really any different to how it's always been. Let's be honest there are 3 or 4 clubs and the rest are filler. What is the point of supporting a club in the premier league in my lifetime that isn't Liverpool, United, Chelsea or Arsenal. FFP or not you can't play at the top table consistently for long. If Everton produced the best crop of players ever to set foot on uk soil and they won the league next year, those players would still be taken from them by the richer clubs every single year they did it. Hope doesn't even exist anymore. It never did, I just refused to notice it. Sure some clubs got seriously wealthy owners in the PL era but they have locked that down with crude FFP.

If Everton produce the best forward ever seen and had the money to match or double the wages of any offered by any other club they couldn't spend it if they had it. It's a dead competition, a lock out. One that has taken cheating to try to join the top table.

Bring in a wage cap regardless of revenue and have an actual level playing field.



Might as well, it's always been about that in my lifetime apart from one year. Then that club got stripped of talent.
Click to expand...
I’ve noticed a lot more picking up on this. If you not part of the boys club you don’t count.

Most clubs will not have a chance to sustain a challenge on the big 6. They will hit the FFP wall or just make up new rules.Just look at the Sponsorship new rules they tried to rush in despite having new ones in place!!.
Newcastle takeover. Instant ban on all owner related sponsorship deals until fair rules are agreed on. New rules passed that all owner relates sponsorship deals have to be passed by an independent board for “fair Market value” even though multiple clubs have benefited from ownership sponsorship for decades.

Fine we will work within the new rules that the majority agreed on. A few clubs panic again 6 months to a year later and try and enforce more rules. What’s wrong with Sponsorship getting passed by an independent board? They have access to every clubs deals to work out what fair market value?
Newcastle shirt sponsor Sela is 25million which was passed and still a fair bit off the so called big 6.

Anyone got any info on the clubs voted for and against these new rules? They were very quick at leaking the clubs voting on the Loans.

You can probably guess the main ones with Lavy leading the mob!! The man who first invited the PIF to invest in Spurs but they didn’t see them as a good deal…… ooo isn't he also begging Qatar now for investment?
 
Last edited:
robfosters said:
Also supplied by the same people who own the club.

Whether you like it or not, it’s financial doping.
Click to expand...
It is.

I think the point he is trying to make is the rules have been brought in after some clubs have benefitted from what the rules are now trying to prevent. I'm not sure what the alternative to that would have been. You've got to have a start line somewhere unless there was some sort of great reset but that would be impossible. I do think he is advocating for Newcastle to be allowed to catch the others up though, or at least protesting the fact we can't.
 
Sports Direct and King power was fine without going near City or looking to much into other clubs. I’m actually fine with “Fair Market Value” would also be fine for wage caps and spending caps if they were fair and equal.

I don’t really need to advocate. Everyone knows the crack about FFP and just being coy about it.

There is no fair playing field and hasn’t been one for years. Fair play for Brighton and Brentford for punching up buts that’s not sustainable. You keep loosing players and managers to other clubs sooner or later the recruitment will hit a bad spell and they won’t be able to absorb these bad spells like the rich clubs.

Football isn’t romantic. Hasn’t been for decades. It’s a cold hard business and a very anticompetitive one at it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom