The Manchester United Club Thread **Sponsored by Comedy Central**

[Shamikebab]

You're just naming popular managers, and they all have jobs. Why on earth would we want Bielsa? He's never won anything and doesn't fit top clubs at all. Nagelsmann I like but there is no saying he'd be interested and he'd require a complete rebuild. Rogers is at Leicester and seems pretty happy (and has already failed at a big club), Ancellotti has just moved to Everton (and has already been sacked by a number of big clubs) and Allegri is a defensive manager who would require a rebuild from scratch and doesn't fit our style at all.

It's easy to say other clubs suck, the other way of looking at it is...we're better. Even in this incredibly difficult season where we didn't have the best transfer window and we had to use the start of the season as a preseason because we had no break and no preseason.

 

[fez]

You're just naming popular managers, and they all have jobs. Why on earth would we want Bielsa? He's never won anything and doesn't fit top clubs at all. Nagelsmann I like but there is no saying he'd be interested and he'd require a complete rebuild. Rogers is at Leicester and seems pretty happy (and has already failed at a big club), Ancellotti has just moved to Everton (and has already been sacked by a number of big clubs) and Allegri is a defensive manager who would require a rebuild from scratch and doesn't fit our style at all.

I was just naming managers who I think would do a better job than Ole. I'm not suggesting we could many of them but how many of our managers since Fergie do you think have been ones that we have coveted vs ones that were simply available when we gave the last manager the push?

When clubs like Leicester and Everton have better managers than we do, something has gone wrong.

It's easy to say other clubs suck, the other way of looking at it is...we're better. Even in this incredibly difficult season where we didn't have the best transfer window and we had to use the start of the season as a preseason because we had no break and no preseason.

The other way of looking at it is that we are outspending everyone but City and relying on our classic rivals to have awful seasons to even be slightly ahead of them. Time will tell which one of us is right.

Personally I think you have been hanging out with @adam cool dude far too much and his endless positivity around Ole has rubbed off on you.

 

[Shamikebab]

I'm on the fence at the moment. If Ole was failing then I'd be saying an extension is a bad idea but the fact is he is exceeding expectations currently. Nobody expected us to be second this year (in fact after the summer a lot of people were talking about us struggling to be in the top 4) Right now I don't see a better option out there to improve us, until that happens it makes sense to stick with the guy who is improving things.

Saying Rogers is better than Ole is just laughable, I think that was the first time they have beaten us in 7 years or something crazy. Leicester's club setup is very impressive, their scouting and transfer team have done a great job but Rogers is nothing special. Similarly Ancelotti is hardly setting Everton alight, they had a great period at the start of the season then they've been fairly crap for a long time.

 

[ChrisD.]

he is exceeding expectations currently. Nobody expected us to be second this year (in fact after the summer a lot of people were talking about us struggling to be in the top 4)

How much of this is the team and how much is it due to the likes of Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool having poor seasons?

 

[adam cool dude]

How much of this is the team and how much is it due to the likes of Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool having poor seasons?

Maybe United are having a poor season as well but having a less poor one than the others? We faired far better against the top six last season for starters. We have also thrown away many wins in the last minute.

 

[bazzabear]

It's easy to say other clubs suck, the other way of looking at it is...we're better. Even in this incredibly difficult season where we didn't have the best transfer window and we had to use the start of the season as a preseason because we had no break and no preseason.

Nah, you're not allowed to say that!

All of our rivals get a free pass due to this season being crazy, but we don't. You have to remember this. So the fact that we're doing better than all but City is immaterial. Doesn't count. They're having bad seasons, so their performance isn't relevant. You can bet your life that if any of them were doing better than us it'd be used as a massive stick to beat us with though!

 

[fez]

Nah, you're not allowed to say that!

All of our rivals get a free pass due to this season being crazy, but we don't. You have to remember this. So the fact that we're doing better than all but City is immaterial. Doesn't count. They're having bad seasons, so their performance isn't relevant. You can bet your life that if any of them were doing better than us it'd be used as a massive stick to beat us with though!

Well we are playing crap, aren't showing any progress that suggests we are improving as a team or have the right manager and we aren't in the CL. Apart from that though we are ahead of some of our rivals who are having historically bad seasons so whats not to like...

 

[Shamikebab]

Winning the CL was never on the cards this season, going out to two of the best teams in the competition last year is hardly a huge surprise. Since then we've beaten two very tough teams in the Europa who based on their form when we played them were better than a lot of the teams who progressed in the CL.

 

[turbot1984]

Winning the CL was never on the cards this season, going out to two of the best teams in the competition last year is hardly a huge surprise. Since then we've beaten two very tough teams in the Europa who based on their form when we played them were better than a lot of the teams who progressed in the CL.

Aye ... think we will turn over Granada too!

 

[One More Solo]

Looking purely at the table, Ole is performing well. The issues are much deeper than that though. Even after this time in charge it is still not clear to me what he is trying to achieve tactically, and we have looked clueless against deep lying teams since the beginning. We are over reliant on individual brilliance to win games.

 

[Shamikebab]

We haven't looked clueless against deep lying teams for a long time now, we wouldn't be in second if we were. Sure, sometimes we come up short but everybody does. People still seem to think we only win with counter attack when frankly we have barely played like that this season, I think someone looked at all our goals and only 10% or something like that were counter attacks.

 

[BaZ87]

..the fact is he is exceeding expectations currently....

Isn't the issue here that he drove down your expectations? 3 months of Mourinho meltdown seems to have excused Ole for how poorly he's done and make some Utd supporters believe finishing in the top 4 is success.

There was some odd shouts recently about how nobody can compete with City because of their spending power, ignoring the fact that Utd have spent as much as they have over the last 5-10 years. Utd should be competing with City for Leagues and CL's. When Mourinho finished 2nd, a million miles behind City, having got knocked out of the CL by Sevilla, it was an underachievement. Ole's taken over that same squad, spent £200m+ net improving it and being 2nd, a million miles behind City and getting knocked out of the CL in the group stages is considered overachieving.

 

[bazzabear]

Well we are playing crap, aren't showing any progress that suggests we are improving as a team or have the right manager and we aren't in the CL. Apart from that though we are ahead of some of our rivals who are having historically bad seasons so whats not to like...

Why are these rivals having a bad season? If the reason why they're all having bad seasons is applicable to us too, then why aren't we allowed to have a bad season?

If we're playing crap, why are we in second, and why have we just lost our first domestic away game for over a year?

Why are we getting beaten up for not progressing from a group which, when it was drawn, we were told we had no chance of progressing from? I was told beforehand that we were certain to get whipped home and away by PSG and Liepzig. Then the exact same people told me that we should have beaten PSG and Leipzig and it was abysmal that we didn't get through the group.

The problem isn't that we're not progressing. It's that what some fans want isn't progression, it's instant and utter dominance. Every and any game we don't win is reacted to as if the world just ended. Hell - most of the games we win get the same reaction!

Absolutely we should be competing at the very top of the league and in the CL. But anyone who thought that was going to happen this season is either kidding themselves, or being deliberately obtuse in order to use us not doing what was never possible as an excuse to put a boot in.

 

[Shamikebab]

How has he driven down expectations? He's on course to be the first manager since Fergie to manage to finish in the top 4 in consecutive seasons. That seems to be higher expectations to me.

Yes United have spent a lot, Ole hasn't though. He's had to deal with a squad that has been very poorly invested in and has a lot of deadwood in it (which he has managed to mostly get rid of, unlike his predecessors who didn't and in fact added to it.

He hasn't taken over that same squad, that squad had best GK in the world. If you look at the performances that season was no different to the ones before or after it, just De Gea had a godlike season. Net spend is a really poor way of measuring squad quality. When Herrera left our net spend was 0 from that, did it change our squad? Of course it did. Similarly City selling a youth player that never played for them shows as a net income, did that change their first team squad? No it didn't.

 

[BaZ87]

How has he driven down expectations?

As I explained, a few months prior to his appointment Mourinho was considered to have had a poor season, finishing 2nd a mile behind City and getting knocked out of the CL in the last 16. Now being 2nd, a mile behind City and getting knocked out of the CL in the group stages is an overachievement. Who is responsible for that change in attitude? You can't put all that on 3-4 months of Mourinho meltdown madness.

He's had to deal with a squad that has been very poorly invested in and has a lot of deadwood in it

The same is likely to be said about whoever takes over from Ole in the future when they're clearling out Maguire et al. But that's besides the point, the deadwood you mention finished 2nd with 80+ points.

He hasn't taken over that same squad...

This is such a random point. It's a managers job to get the best out of players. Ole took over the same group of players (minus Blind but plus Dalot & Fred) that had finished 2nd with 80 odd points. He didn't and hasn't been able to get them to reach the same level as Mourinho did. He's spent in excess of £200m net trying to improve that group of players and still isn't on course to reach the level that Mourinho reached.

And I didn't say net spend was a measure of squad quality. How much money a manager has had to spend is something you use to measure their performance though, unless you're suggesting he didn't have any say in the signings you've made.

 

[Shamikebab]

I don't remember people were saying it was a poor season for Mourinho, it was alright but there was improvement to be made (much like this season, nobody has said we have been fantastic but their has been clear improvement) As I said (which you avoided) Ole is the first manager that looks on to maintain top 4 for 2 years running, that is not lowering standards.

Now you're just being silly Baz, you'd have to be an idiot to think Maguire is deadwood. Also as I said (and you again ignored because it doesn't fit your agenda) We finished 2nd because of a great performance from De Gea, not because the team was playing any better. I'm sure you can see the difference.

Of course he's reached the same level Mourinho had, do you even watch us play? No way were we better under him.

It's a dumb way to measure performance for the reasons I've listed. Sure you can judge it that way if you want, it's just not a good way of judging it.

 

[BaZ87]

I don't remember people were saying it was a poor season for Mourinho, it was alright but there was improvement to be made (much like this season, nobody has said we have been fantastic but their has been clear improvement) As I said (which you avoided) Ole is the first manager that looks on to maintain top 4 for 2 years running, that is not lowering standards.

Now you're just being silly Baz, you'd have to be an idiot to think Maguire is deadwood. Also as I said (and you again ignored because it doesn't fit your agenda) We finished 2nd because of a great performance from De Gea, not because the team was playing any better. I'm sure you can see the difference.

Of course he's reached the same level Mourinho had, do you even watch us play? No way were we better under him.

It's a dumb way to measure performance for the reasons I've listed. Sure you can judge it that way if you want, it's just not a good way of judging it.

I remember lots of people saying it was. I remember Mourinho sitting in a press-conference telling the world that Utd were **** before him, to defend himself from those criticisms. And I didn't avoid anything. My point was that Utd supporters expectations have dropped massively whereby finishing in the top 4 is an achievement. You saying "we're going to finish in the top 4 for 2 years running" proves my point!

And you can say that re Maguire but if the manager that follows Ole is a progressive manager that wants to play high up the pitch, without 2 midfielders babysitting his CB's then Maguire's going to be deadwood. I think it's a bit silly to suggest that De Gea was the single reason for you finishing 2nd too. He was performing equally as well in the few seasons prior to that when you didn't finish 2nd so the rest of the side must have contributed something that season.

And no, he's not reached the same level. Style of play is subjective. How many points you pick up, how far you progress in cup comeptitions isn't. Utd picked up more points under Mourinho than they have or are on course to do under Ole, they went further in the CL and the season prior they won the EL & League Cup. The silver lining of you getting knocked out of the CL in the groups rather than the knockout rounds is that it gives you a great chance of winning the EL. Looking at the standard of side in the competition, you really are big favourites to win it but then again you were last season too.

And you might think it's dumb but maybe that's because "it doesn't fit your agenda" or maybe your expectations really are at rock bottom and you're happy spending £200m to go from finishing 2nd to finishing 2nd, not challenging for the League. At least it's not as bad as the last two seasons.....which ws the point I was making.

I'm not saying this in a ****head snide way but I hope Ole gets a new contract. I cannot see how Utd will challenge for the League or CL with him in charge. You might be playing more attractive football than under Mourinho but you look no more effective in terms of results than he achieved in 17/18 and I still don't see the end goal with this squad. Ole took over with a number of question marks over key areas of the side and there seems to be just as many now, if not all the same ones. Who will Utd's keeper be next season and if it's one of the two at the club, are they good enough? You need a top class CB still. The never ending Pogba saga is still running and covid is going to again make dealing with that difficult - he wants to leave, I'm sure Utd would be happy for him to go but will anybody offer a half decent fee for him? The same questions about whether Rashford and Martial are ultimately good enough still remain.

 

[Shamikebab]

Baz, it's quite clear you haven't actually looked at the stats. You're just looking at the highest level of analysis and ignoring all the details. For example how far you progress in cup competitions is entirely dependant on who you play. Ole has beaten tougher teams in two games than Jose had to beat in his whole run in the Europa League. If you fail to look into the details then your analysis is incomplete.

Spurs got further than us in the League cup this year, because they drew Brentford and we drew City, does that make them better? Of course it doesn't.

 

[BaZ87]

Baz, it's quite clear you haven't actually looked at the stats. You're just looking at the highest level of analysis and ignoring all the details. For example how far you progress in cup competitions is entirely dependant on who you play. Ole has beaten tougher teams in two games than Jose had to beat in his whole run in the Europa League. If you fail to look into the details then your analysis is incomplete.

Spurs got further than us in the League cup this year, because they drew Brentford and we drew City, does that make them better? Of course it doesn't.

What stats am I meant to be looking at? Mourinho won the League Cup, beating City on the way. Last season and this season you were knocked out of the League Cup by City. Does that prove anything? Using isolated games proves very little but I agree that Cup competitions can be an unfair way of judging a manager however for every loss to City there's been a loss to Wolves, Leicester, Istanbul, Leipzig or Sevilla.

My original point still stands. Utd won trophies, finished higher in the table/picked up more points under Mourinho - at the time Mourinho was criticised for it (rightly so in my opinion) but even just to quote you, "it was alright". He certainly didn't excede expectations, as you've said that Ole is doing, despite achieving less. What is the reason for that decline in your expectations if not what Ole's done in the past 2 years?

 

[Shamikebab]

What stats am I meant to be looking at? Mourinho won the League Cup, beating City on the way. Last season and this season you were knocked out of the League Cup by City. Does that prove anything? Using isolated games proves very little but I agree that Cup competitions can be an unfair way of judging a manager however for every loss to City there's been a loss to Wolves, Leicester, Istanbul, Leipzig or Sevilla.

You're not realising how much De Gea outperformed the expected that season, he beat his expected conceded goals by an insane amount. We weren't playing any better as a team he was just playing godlike. The level of team that Ole inherited wasn't a 2nd place team, it was a 5th/6th place team that had overperformed for one season.

He certainly didn't excede expectations, as you've said that Ole is doing, despite achieving less. What is the reason for that decline in your expectations if not what Ole's done in the past 2 years?

Because Jose left us in the absolute pits, a squad that was full of deadwood like Sanchez, Smalling, Jones, Rojo etc that we're still trying to get rid of. Signings that made no sense that we then had to try and shift. The squad was low on morale, unfit and unable of executing the basic tenets of modern football because Jose didn't prioritise them (pressing, playing out from the back etc) We had to do almost a complete rebuild, that doesn't happen in 2 seasons, especially when one of them was heavily impacted by the covid crisis.