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[adam cool dude]

You've missed the point. I'm talking about teams that get early red cards rarely ever winning. No I don't think Tuchel would have done any better than Ole against YB. In similar circumstances against a weaker team they got absolutely thrashed. We only lost because of one stupid individual error at the very end.

Exactly there is a lot of knee jerk going on here. If Jesse hadn't made a mistake and Bruno converted a penalty it would look a lot different now. Man Utd would have been top of the Prem with Liverpool.

West ham you can throw out as it was a complete second string 11 where as Westham played a strong side.

One thing that is for sure is that the Premier League is just not as predictable than it used to be. I honestly believe teams like Southampton, West Ham and Villawould be challenging for top 4 in the German and French leagues.

There is no doubt however that this Wednesday's Champions League is crucial and with AWB, Shaw and Maguire all out it is going to be tough. Saying that I hope Lindelof, Telles and Dalot will step up to the challenge.

 

[fez]

Exactly there is a lot of knee jerk going on here. If Jesse hadn't made a mistake and Bruno converted a penalty it would look a lot different now. Man Utd would have been top of the Prem with Liverpool.

Still playing like crap though. This is why I would have happily replaced Ole after last season. Hes going nowhere. We still have exactly the same issues as we had last season and the season before. I watch Liverpool and City play and they are just on another level to us. Not squad wise. Manager. It makes me sad to think what a manager like Klopp could do with our set of players. Over a season, playing badly catches up with you. You can't point at games where we dropped points because of a single incident. Those games should happen a few times a season. We aren't blasting past teams with ease. We are struggling past them even when we win. Getting outplayed and then beating them because we have a ridiculous team. That what LvG would do. "If we put away this single chance it would have won us the game". Good teams don't rely on that. Good teams would win by 5-6 goals if they took all their good chances in a game.

Over the course of a season we will drift off the top teams in the league and drop out of the CL with some limp performances. We will beat City, Chelsea and Liverpool maybe and then people will point to those games as proof of how good we are and how we are just unlucky to lose 5 games to teams in the bottom half of the table and draw far too many games.

Why do you think opposition fans have so little respect for Ole compared to pretty much any other manager out there? Genuinely interested. I can't think of any other team that has a manager that elicits such different opinions from the home fans vs opposition fans. Opposition fans might not have liked Ferguson but that definitely respected him and knew he was a great manager.

West ham you can throw out as it was a complete second string 11 where as Westham played a strong side.

Pretty sure WH also played a very changed side vs us. That wasn't their first XI.

 

[Mekrel]

Exactly there is a lot of knee jerk going on here. If Jesse hadn't made a mistake and Bruno converted a penalty it would look a lot different now. Man Utd would have been top of the Prem with Liverpool.

West ham you can throw out as it was a complete second string 11 where as Westham played a strong side.

One thing that is for sure is that the Premier League is just not as predictable than it used to be. I honestly believe teams like Southampton, West Ham and Villawould be challenging for top 4 in the German and French leagues.

There is no doubt however that this Wednesday's Champions League is crucial and with AWB, Shaw and Maguire all out it is going to be tough. Saying that I hope Lindelof, Telles and Dalot will step up to the challenge.

Ah the age old "if that hadn't happened" line. Why is it that we're leaving ourselves open to such mistakes costing us three points? Clinging onto the fact we needed a lucky penalty (and winning penalties from non-deliberate hand balls, unlike poor challenges are very fortunate) to rescue a point at home against West Ham is pretty condemning of where some of our fans expectations lie.

I'm more than happy to win when not playing well, it's a results driven game and that's a characteristic of champions but no one can deny that you can't ride your luck that way for a full season.

Playing turgid football and not carving out clear cut chances, relying on moments of individual brilliance or opposition mistakes doesn't make for consistent performance or silverware.

You need to look at the bigger picture here and not rely on limited examples of "plenty of teams lose when down to 10 men", because there are equally examples of 10 men teams still getting a result against stronger opposition. Chelsea managed a whole half down to 10 men against Liverpool and came away with a draw. Result aside from the YB game, you can't seriously suggest that Ole managed that game well? His substitutions were very much a case of throw what I can on the pitch because something might make a difference.

 

[Shamikebab]

You need to look at the bigger picture here and not rely on limited examples of "plenty of teams lose when down to 10 men", because there are equally examples of 10 men teams still getting a result against stronger opposition. Chelsea managed a whole half down to 10 men against Liverpool and came away with a draw. Result aside from the YB game, you can't seriously suggest that Ole managed that game well? His substitutions were very much a case of throw what I can on the pitch because something might make a difference.

You realise Liverpool created more chances than YB did? I believe their xG was 3 or something crazy they just have crap finishing. That doesn't sound like a tactical masterclass to me, it sounds like luck.

 

[BaZ87]

You've missed the point. I'm talking about teams that get early red cards rarely ever winning. No I don't think Tuchel would have done any better than Ole against YB. In similar circumstances against a weaker team they got absolutely thrashed. We only lost because of one stupid individual error at the very end.

I didn't miss the point, I knew you meant that but using a single game as some sort of proof that Tuchel couldn't have done any better is a weak argument. Why didn't you use the Liverpool game when they held on against a much stronger side with 10 men?

Tuchel is clearly a better manager than Ole, I think it's fair to say that he's likely to have been able to do better than Ole in those circumstances. That doesn't mean he 100% would have, just more likely to have.

You realise Liverpool created more chances than YB did? I believe their xG was 3 or something crazy they just have crap finishing. That doesn't sound like a tactical masterclass to me, it sounds like luck.

What was our xg in the 2nd half after they went down to 10 men? As you know, I'm not a xg hater but there are times when it can be misleading and the Liverpool - Chelsea game was one of those. A big chunk of our xg came from the penalty and the goalmouth scramble that led to the penalty - we could have only scored 1 goal from an xg well above 1.

edit: I've just checked and there was 3 attempts in that scramble + the penalty with a total xg of 1.99. So we only had a total xg outside that one moment of 1.36 across the 90 minutes.

 

[Shamikebab]

I didn't miss the point, I knew you meant that but using a single game as some sort of proof that Tuchel couldn't have done any better is a weak argument. Why didn't you use the Liverpool game when they held on against a much stronger side with 10 men?

Because the number of times teams have 'held on' after a red is far, far smaller than those losing. It is incredibly rare for a team playing with ten men for over one half to beat a team playing with eleven. The fact that people are blaming Ole when their winning goal was an individual error (and then at the same time slamming him for winning with individual brilliance) shows the agenda at play.

 

[Shamikebab]

edit: I've just checked and there was 3 attempts in that scramble + the penalty with a total xg of 1.99. So we only had a total xg outside that one moment of 1.36 across the 90 minutes.

Young Boys had an xG of 1.46 over 90 mins. You're right, tactical masterclass from Tuchel to persuade the Liverpool forwards not to finish.

 

[BaZ87]

Because the number of times teams have 'held on' after a red is far, far smaller than those losing. It is incredibly rare for a team playing with ten men for over one half to beat a team playing with eleven. The fact that people are blaming Ole when their winning goal was an individual error (and then at the same time slamming him for winning with individual brilliance) shows the agenda at play.

Young Boys had an xG of 1.46 over 90 mins. You're right, tactical masterclass from Tuchel to persuade the Liverpool forwards not to finish.

So because the number of times a team with 10 men does not lose is small, it's therefore impossible for anybody to have done better than Ole? As for the comment about an agenda against Ole, that's just silly. Utd were playing against a far far inferior side to them and even with 10 men it's not unreasonable to expect them to have done better.

And you're really clutching with that last line. You were playing a Championship level side, Chelsea were playing one of the leading sides in Europe. You tried to argue that Liverpool had a huge xg but the majority of that xg was one single chance - Liverpool could (and maybe should) have won the game but considering the side they were up against, Chelsea done very well to limit the number of opportunities we had.

 

[Shamikebab]

So because the number of times a team with 10 men does not lose is small, it's therefore impossible for anybody to have done better than Ole?

Where did I say that?

 

[Mekrel]

So comparing Ole to previous Manchester United managers:

Manager, competitive games, goals per game, goals conceded per game, win% and honors.

OGS 159  1.8  1.0  55.4
 JM 144  1.7  0.8  58.3  Europa League, League Cup, Community Shield
LvG 103  1.5  1.0  52.4  FA Cup

So in more games played, hasn't won anything compared to his previous counter parts. His win % is only better than Moyes and LvGs in the post Ferguson era despite having a better squad than both those managers, and goals scored per game is hardly higher than under 'be hard to beat' Jose.

If JM & LvG were sacked (and they rightfully were) - what does this say about Ole with the amount of time and investment he has had?

We won't win anything under Ole and this doesn't make him the right man for the job.

 

[BaZ87]

Where did I say that?

It was a question because your defense of Ole seems to be, well x lost too. Yes, a team that spends the majority of the game with a man less is more likely to lose a game but if football was as simple as that then whenever a red card is issued we may as well blow the final whistle and award the win to the other team. Although not as likely as with 11 men, there's many examples of times where a team with 10 men has held onto to a win or a draw (particularly from a winning position) and there's even examples of a side coming back from being behind and winning with 10 men. You were playing Young Boys, not peak Barca, and you were winning - I think it's fair to say that Utd could have done better than they did.

 

[Shamikebab]

It was a question because your defense of Ole seems to be, well x lost too. Yes, a team that spends the majority of the game with a man less is more likely to lose a game but if football was as simple as that then whenever a red card is issued we may as well blow the final whistle and award the win to the other team. Although not as likely as with 11 men, there's many examples of times where a team with 10 men has held onto to a win or a draw (particularly from a winning position) and there's even examples of a side coming back from being behind and winning with 10 men. You were playing Young Boys, not peak Barca, and you were winning - I think it's fair to say that Utd could have done better than they did.

So why is this argument not used for everyone else? Seriously, the sample size of people that have achieved that is minute. Big clubs have lost to small clubs in that scenario more times than they haven't. I don't remember anyone claiming Tuchel wasn't 'elite' because he got thrashed by West Brom when down to ten men.

 

[BaZ87]

So why is this argument not used for everyone else? Seriously, the sample size of people that have achieved that is minute. Big clubs have lost to small clubs in that scenario more times than they haven't. I don't remember anyone claiming Tuchel wasn't 'elite' because he got thrashed by West Brom when down to ten men.

Nobody is claiming Ole isn't an elite coach because of this one incident but this incident adds to a long list of other incidents where he's been found wanting. The EL final, the previous year vs Sevilla, getting knocked out of the CL group stages and various domestic cup failures vs sides Utd should be beating, coupled with the fact that he's not won anything and even his best mates in the media acknowledging that Utd are just a group of individuals rather than a team, is why people are saying he's not an elite manager.

 

[Reuben klang]

United under LvG and JM where boring as anything though. At least with Ole it’s some what fun, you don’t know what’s going to happen for game to game and which individual is going to win it for them.

 

[omnomnom]

United under LvG and JM where boring as anything though. At least with Ole it’s some what fun, you don’t know what’s going to happen for game to game and which individual is going to win it for them.

So United are a rudderless ship relying on individual brilliance? Something @fez gets absolutely slaughtered for weekly?

 

[Robbo]

It's funny people say "we've tried the high end manager route and it didn't work" - Jose did what he usually does and LvG was just a bit mental.

That means we should just employ an ex-player instead? That no other manager can do a good job for us?! Just bizarre.

 

[adam cool dude]

It's funny people say "we've tried the high end manager route and it didn't work" - Jose did what he usually does and LvG was just a bit mental.

That means we should just employ an ex-player instead? That no other manager can do a good job for us?! Just bizarre.

What high end manager is available at the calibre of Klopp and Guardiola? We were really spoilt for choice 15 years ago but now?

 

[Robbo]

What high end manager is available at the calibre of Klopp and Guardiola? We were really spoilt for choice 15 years ago but now?

Of course there's a shortage of truly elite managers, but why can't we just have a very good one?

 

[Alex h]

Of course there's a shortage of truly elite managers, but why can't we just have a very good one?

Yeh at least one with a plan and a idea on tactics

 

[fez]

What high end manager is available at the calibre of Klopp and Guardiola? We were really spoilt for choice 15 years ago but now?

City and Liverpool are not the only top sides in the world. Nor have they been for the past 8 years. The reason we consistently get poor managers or the wrong manager is because we have 0 planning. We sack a manager when they perform poorly enough even when the writing is on the wall for months/years and then have a look around at who we can replace them with. There are a dozen or more top teams in the world with good managers and god know how many have moved clubs while we have been suffering through mediocrity.

Wait until City have to replace Pep and see who they get. It won't be an ex-player with a crap managerial record and it won't be an unplanned appointment they haven't actually planned for.

Of course there's a shortage of truly elite managers, but why can't we just have a very good one?

This is the other side of it. There maybe aren't many Peps and Klopps about but there are plenty that are just a tier below or have simply never been given a shot with a truly big club. Dortmund always seem to have a good manager. Ajax usually have a good manager. Juventus. Nagelsmann could probably have been persuaded if we went in for him in the past few years.

Klopp wasn't exactly a dead cert before he went to Liverpool. Plenty of people didn't rate him at the time.

What I am 100% certain of is that Ole isn't close to being in the top 30 or so managers in the world and we are in the top 4 biggest clubs in the world. We should have a better manager. We could have a better manager. You can win plenty with a very good manager and a very good squad. A very good manager and a very good squad can beat the best team with the best manager. A very good team with an average manager will win nothing of note. England won't win anything with Southgate and United won't win anything with Ole.