The next Labour leader thread

Mr Jack said:
Most of them were older people. Many of them talked about being involved in the Labour party for decades; one was the chairman of the PLC.

One of our councillors spoke for Owen Smith. Jon (our MP) didn't speak but I think it's pretty clear he favours Smith but doesn't want to call for either candidate.
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There's some despondency among the political greybeards here as well -- a reasonably safe Tory seat with Labour second, surrounded by similar seats -- as in 'we've lost the argument, so let the Corbyn era fizzle out' a la Sadiq Khan; quite exhausted by the internecine battles too; a few murmurs about copying the Lib Dem's strategy of taking local power first, and leaving Corbyn to enjoy himself in London (this, as someone more on the Orange side, I can tell you doesn't work as expected, fragments you and always has the risk of elimination from the national narrative in the tail). The problem with this line of thinking I see is that Jezza has no intention of stepping down come what may, and he has no heir apparent who can bridge Momentum and the PLP. At 67, far from a terminal age for a political career, it's not unreasonable for said 'fizzling out' to last at least a decade. And should the party somehow stick together, we'll see a series of escalating challenges and more dithering in the Commons.

So here we are: Corbyn wearing old socialism as new clothes and losing grasp of reality and intellectual powers behind his movement; old New Labour struggling against centrist Tory rhetoric, the legacy of the Iraq War and supporters who reject triangulation; and fresh social democrats unsure of how to define the party in their terms, since they don't fit neatly into either of the two warring wings, but who very much want a more proportionate outcome out of our wealth generation to be accessible to more people through parliamentary means and better representation.

As for the debates, they haven't moved on much from the referendum. Owen's doing better but Corbyn's playing to a very supportive gallery, with the expectation of a straightforward win still. Naturally, people who turn up to these events already have a strong view one way or the other, and actually follow politics, so just how representative they are of the overall membership we won't know until the final ballot.
 
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As someone that once upon a time voted Labour all I can say is, you have no idea how destructive backstabbing Corbyn looks.

I look at the internal struggles within Labour at the moment. Using members money to stop Labour supporters from voting. The threats to split the party. The anyone but Corbyn mantra and all I have gleamed from this is, I wouldn't dare leave the running of this Country in Labour hands.

You are going have to let Corbyn fail at a general election and then try moving forward.
 
Mr Jack said:
* - actually, to be honest, I spoke against Corbyn and in favour of the PLP. I don't think anyone who spoke in favour of Smith really spoke passionately in favour of him. This is much more a debate about Corbyn's failure as a leader than it is about Owen's suitability.
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This encapsulates my views to a large extent. Even as a tory (non scum :D) I see the need for a strong and viable opposition in parliament to review, critique and amend government policy where necessary. We do not want or need a one party state.

If Owen Smith is the best candidate that the Labour party can put against Jeremy Corbyn, a popular leader, then I do despair. He does not portray the kind of experienced party leader who could excite the population to vote for him and for Labour in a general election.

Perhaps a stalking horse that would be soon replaced if he did manage to win.
 
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RDM said:
Do you think Smith has a real chance of beating May?
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Numerically, if Smith doesn't land the government a triple digit majority (we're looking at 50 less seats overall at the next election, and guess where the losses will be falling...), he's a god among men as it stands. A rainbow opposition against a strong majority in parliament? One party state. I also don't see many smaller party leaders willing to put their interests aside for Labour's sake under Corbyn, who hasn't really shown the warmest of interests in working with them anyway.
 
RDM said:
Do you think Smith has a real chance of beating May?
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When? If, as many suspect, there's an election next year - no, I don't but I do think he can stop the Tories gaining a big majority; Corbyn is looking at losing 50-60 seats to give May a comfortable majority. Longer term, as Brexit trashes the British economy and the impact of the Tory devastation of public services and cruelty to the poorest starts to get through to the public I think there's an opportunity to win. Even in the last election, Cameron didn't exactly win big. It was only the utter collapse of the Lib Dems that delivered him a majority, and I don't see much reason to believe May will be significantly more popular once her new-PM bounce has worn off.

Against that, of course, you have Tory gerrymandering to rig the electoral playing field in their favour, and the lasting damage the split between party and members is likely to inflict.

Whether Owen Smith can meet that opportunity, I really don't know. It's hard to judge the man at this point but I've been reasonably impressed with what I've seen so far. He's seriously lacking in experience though, and is rather an unknown.
 
Mr Jack said:
Whether Owen Smith can meet that opportunity, I really don't know. It's hard to judge the man at this point but I've been reasonably impressed with what I've seen so far. He's seriously lacking in experience though, and is rather an unknown.
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Versus the record of competence that Corbyn has shown I don't think lack of experience is something we can really hold Smith against.


I've started to look into the average Corbyn supporters a bit more over the last few weeks, and jeez... I had assumed that the there was some sort of grudge against the man because of his views, but no, he really is that incompetent and his supporters that deluded.

Saw one guy that described himself as far left, supports Corbyn and wants Trump to win. I mean, what? How do those beliefs even come together?

Then I've seen all the stick than Owen Jones has gotten recently after posting a single article questioning the leadership capabilities of Corbyn. Titled something like 10 questions he needs to answer. When Owen Jones gets described as a tory sympathiser, you know that something is amiss in the labour camp.
 
ColdAsIce said:
You are going have to let Corbyn fail at a general election and then try moving forward.
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I doubt anything will change post election. Momentum will blame Corbyn's catastrophic loss on MSM lies and Blairite traitors. They'll bury their heads in the sand and refuse to take any of the blame for the loss.
 
Tunney said:
I doubt anything will change post election. Momentum will blame Corbyn's catastrophic loss on MSM lies and Blairite traitors. They'll bury their heads in the sand and refuse to take any of the blame for the loss.
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And when Labour loses with Smith?

Will he resign as well?

Its a revolving door of utter **** leaders.
 
Smith has just said there is a secret plan by the Tories to privatise the NHS in England. Has he woken up after a twenty year slumber. It has been blindingly obvious for decades that it was the Tory long term plan. The fragmentation and selling off parts of the NHS. Did he not notice? Doesn't say much for his abilities as an MP let alone a Leader if he has just come to this conclusion.
 
do_ron_ron said:
Smith has just said there is a secret plan by the Tories to privatise the NHS in England. Has he woken up after a twenty year slumber. It has been blindingly obvious for decades that it was the Tory long term plan. The fragmentation and selling off parts of the NHS. Did he not notice? Doesn't say much for his abilities as an MP let alone a Leader if he has just come to this conclusion.
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Unless you nationalise quite a lot of industry (some of which, like pharma, is global now anyway), it's not possible to have a completely public service of the standard the NHS delivers at the moment and people expect, particularly on the inputs side of things. And, when properly regulated under normal conditions, this is a non-issue: the state can use its considerable control over regulation and purchasing power to maximise service provision and market competition to optimise costs.

Inefficiencies and problems arise when:
  • The government thinks it's fine to divert funds for economical or political reasons, not keeping up with demand
  • The private sector is being relied upon too much to plug the holes in training, staffing, capacity and financing for infrastructure projects
  • The trusts are run into failure before problems are addressed, which ends up costing more in the long run
  • The government allows through negligence or poor regulation for vital suppliers to form a virtual cartel, which will act, after an initially successful bid, to block competition and maximise their cash cow
  • The use of publicly funded research is managed poorly, allowing the private sector to once again maximise profit and push the risk onto the tax payer and point of origin (normally universities and public research institutes in the UK and Europe)
  • Evidence and metrics aren't used to make the service better but to score a few points and tick some boxes for whoever is in charge; parties of all stripes are guilty of this; add to this poor attempts at ideologically driven reform and restructuring in recessions

Smith is right to point out that the current government isn't keeping up with its rhetoric on the NHS. Something Corbyn should be more hawkish about too, especially since we're about to walk into a period of Tory-led global trade deals.
 
I like to think of myself as quite politically turned on and tuned in yet I've completely lost interest in the whole farce that her majesty's opposition have shown themselves to be, we need a strong opposition most certainly, I don't see Labour delivering it no matter who the leader is.

Anybody feel the same?
 
do_ron_ron said:
Smith has just said there is a secret plan by the Tories to privatise the NHS in England. Has he woken up after a twenty year slumber. It has been blindingly obvious for decades that it was the Tory long term plan. The fragmentation and selling off parts of the NHS. Did he not notice? Doesn't say much for his abilities as an MP let alone a Leader if he has just come to this conclusion.
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If it was secret, who told him? Has he been delving deep into Whitehall? Got a mole in the Conservative party? Or just reading open sources of information.

Of course he could just be extrapolating from the last Labour governments policies for the NHS.
 
Does anyone do media/public debate training in Labour? Owen's not doing his slim chances any favours by letting Corbyn pounce on a gaffe that went far beyond his own Hamas musings, and was easy to shoot down. Totally out of the blue that one. Both are weak on foreign policy, but if Owen didn't have a particularly strong view one way or the other, he shouldn't have attempted to spin this on the spot -- it's precisely the wrong point to 'reach out' to the Corbynistas on, and so easy to make an unprepared mess as he did!
 
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