*** The Official Astronomy & Universe Thread ***

[Sankari]

1960s: NASA lands a probe on the moon perfectly, with technology less sophisticated than a 1980s caculator.

2024: private sector tries to land a probe on the moon with all the benefits of advanced 21st century technology, ***** it up, and watches impotently as their probe dies within hours.

What an absolute joke.

 

[drakulton]

I hope it's a form of heaven (and hell).

What on earth does this mean...?

No idea..... but bizarrely, Heaven and Hell was a tune composed by Vangelis used as the theme for Cosmos.

 

[Tykey]

No idea..... but bizarrely, Heaven and Hell was a tune composed by Vangelis used as the theme for Cosmos.

"No idea", so that's 2 people that have issues following a thought path! I was initially talking about what dark matter and energy might be and that we have no clue. I then said "I hope it's a form of heaven (and hell).". Was that difficult to follow? Do you need a breather now

 

[drakulton]

"No idea", so that's 2 people that have issues following a thought path! I was initially talking about what dark matter and energy might be and that we have no clue. I then said "I hope it's a form of heaven (and hell).". Was that difficult to follow? Do you need a breather now

Sorry mate, I didn't actually read the full post. I was too busy listening to Vangelis.

 

[Cadder]

That will get 6" Dobson.

Ursa Major 6

First Light Optics - Suppliers of Astronomy telescopes, binoculars and accessories from Skywatcher, Celestron, Meade, William Optics, Atik, Imaging Source, Starlight Xpress, ADM, Moonlite, Catseye, Hutech and others.

www.firstlightoptics.com

Bresser Messier 6

First Light Optics - Suppliers of Astronomy telescopes, binoculars and accessories from Skywatcher, Celestron, Meade, William Optics, Atik, Imaging Source, Starlight Xpress, ADM, Moonlite, Catseye, Hutech and others.

www.firstlightoptics.com

Sky-Watcher Classic 150P Dobsonian

First Light Optics - Suppliers of Astronomy telescopes, binoculars and accessories from Skywatcher, Celestron, Meade, William Optics, Atik, Imaging Source, Starlight Xpress, ADM, Moonlite, Catseye, Hutech and others.

www.firstlightoptics.com

It would be good start for deep sky (outside solar system) objects, if you have dark sky, and especially for observing by far the most rewarding celestial obejfct, our Moon.
Though single speed focuser is challenge for higher magnifications.

Thanks! They look good. Are all three pretty much the same spec?

 

[Penfold101]

"No idea", so that's 2 people that have issues following a thought path! I was initially talking about what dark matter and energy might be and that we have no clue. I then said "I hope it's a form of heaven (and hell).". Was that difficult to follow? Do you need a breather now

Because ‘heaven and hell’ is an absolutely meaningless statement which adds nothing to the conversation. If you can describe what they actually are and how they produce the observed effects of dark matter and dark energy, go ahead…

 

[Tykey]

Because ‘heaven and hell’ is an absolutely meaningless statement which adds nothing to the conversation. If you can describe what they actually are and how they produce the observed effects of dark matter and dark energy, go ahead…

I don't think I need to describe what heaven and hell are, I think most people have a general idea of their own what such things could be like lol. How they could attribute to the observed effects of dark matter and dark matter (of which there are few) - use your imagination (if you have one).

 

[Penfold101]

I don't think I need to describe what heaven and hell are, I think most people have a general idea of their own what such things could be like lol. How they could attribute to the observed effects of dark matter and dark matter (of which there are few) - use your imagination (if you have one).

The effects of dark matter are the reason we know that it exists - we can see the gravitational effects it has on both light and normal matter due to the rotational motion of galaxies and gravitational lensing, but its inability to interact with the electromagnetic spectrum makes it (currently) impossible to investigate further, hence ‘dark’.

Dark energy is used as the explanation for the acceleration of the expansion of the universe, being equal everywhere and making up 68% of the mass/energy of the universe as a whole. Beyond that we know precious little about it but like dark matter we know it’s there because we see the effects.

Heaven and hell are just some religious nonsense dreamed up by people who like to threaten others with eternal torture, think there should be some sort of cosmic justice and refuse to accept that death is the end of our existence, despite that being zero evidence for it, and I have no idea how you could make them in any way similar to the scientific concepts above.

 

[Tykey]

The effects of dark matter are the reason we know that it exists - we can see the gravitational effects it has on both light and normal matter due to the rotational motion of galaxies and gravitational lensing, but its inability to interact with the electromagnetic spectrum makes it (currently) impossible to investigate further, hence ‘dark’.

Dark energy is used as the explanation for the acceleration of the expansion of the universe, being equal everywhere and making up 68% of the mass/energy of the universe as a whole. Beyond that we know precious little about it but like dark matter we know it’s there because we see the effects.

Heaven and hell are just some religious nonsense dreamed up by people who like to threaten others with eternal torture, think there should be some sort of cosmic justice and refuse to accept that death is the end of our existence, despite that being zero evidence for it, and I have no idea how you could make them in any way similar to the scientific concepts above.

"Nonsense". Nice way to describe the heartlfelt beliefs of many billions of people. Anyway, with knowing literally nothing about dark matter apart from its gravitational effects, dark matter could be literally anything. It could be something mystical, or it might not be. You have no clue, neither do I, and indeed in my 1st post on this in which you took offence to lmao I literally just said it's probably just some exotic particle we haven't yet discovered. But the truth at the moment is, we don't know.

Same for dark energy, apart from the it causing and speeding up the expansion of the universe, we have zero idea about it. I'll leave it that, because no offence you seem a bit of a twit. You probably think I'm religious, I'm not, I also don't believe there is a God, but I damn well hope there is, I hope I'm wrong, and I don't call what many people have a deep connection to "Nonsense". Have a good day.

 

[PlacidCasual]

1960s: NASA lands a probe on the moon perfectly, with technology less sophisticated than a 1980s caculator.

2024: private sector tries to land a probe on the moon with all the benefits of advanced 21st century technology, ***** it up, and watches impotently as their probe dies within hours.

What an absolute joke.

Don't get carried away too early. The Odysseus probe was attempting to land at moon's south pole where no probe has previously landed I believe. It is possible that the nature of the shadows and camera image (if used for landing) made the task harder than near the equator which has more direct overhead sunlight. Also there may have been desirable reasons for an upright lander, like improved line of sight for communications, that apply for mission payload and location.

Let's see what the investigation outputs before being too harsh.

 

[EsaT]

Thanks! They look good. Are all three pretty much the same spec?

Optical quality wise there should be little difference.
Mass production of parabolic mirrors is routine nowadays and f/8 focal ratio is very easy for accurate manufacturing.

Accessories and features is where differences start.

For example Bresser has very good altitude axis implementation allowing rotating tube for the best focuser and finder position and rebalancing tube. (should work also as carrying handles for tube)
Also 2" focuser allows getting wide view eyepiece.
Though if you swap between small 1.25" eyepieces and big 2" "hand grenade" there's no adjusting of altitude axis sensitivity/tightness for movement.
And if you want to swap finder, its mounting shoe is non-standard/proprietary. (or "poropietari" as we call in Finnish as twist of butterfinger meaning word poropeukalo)
That straight through finder really isn't good for anything but bright, easy to find objects when looking signigifcantly above the horizon and literally tries to break your neck, if you want to look near zenith through it.

Ursa Major again has standard "Synta/Vixen" style dovetail mounting for finder scope allowing swapping it in seconds.
But 1.25" focuser limits maximum FOV, if you have reasonably dark sky and want to look other than solar system objects.
Here's comparison of FOV between entry level 2" wide view eyepiece, 25mm Plössl and the widest view of 1.25" size giving 32mm Plössl using Pleiades as scale:

astronomy.tools

astronomy.tools

SkyWatcher has standard finder mount and wide view eyepieces allowing 2" focuser.
Though it's still single speed focuser and hence has the "finesse of trying to park car using only second/third gear" for high magnifications.
And unlike Crayford focuser in bigger SkyWatchers, there's no upgrade kit available for it. (whole focuser is £150)


For deep sky (outside solar system) objects magnifications single speed focuser really isn't any issue.
But if you want to squeeze details out from the Moon and planets, it lacks accuracy for easy focusing.
While planets are actually very challenging targets for seeing details, Moon is very rewarding from the first moment you start learning observing skills.
Still £300 is really entry level with better equipping costing more.

 

[SuperElectric]

"Nonsense". Nice way to describe the heartlfelt beliefs of many billions of people. Anyway, with knowing literally nothing about dark matter apart from its gravitational effects, dark matter could be literally anything. It could be something mystical, or it might not be. You have no clue, neither do I, and indeed in my 1st post on this in which you took offence to lmao I literally just said it's probably just some exotic particle we haven't yet discovered. But the truth at the moment is, we don't know.

Same for dark energy, apart from the it causing and speeding up the expansion of the universe, we have zero idea about it. I'll leave it that, because no offence you seem a bit of a twit. You probably think I'm religious, I'm not, I also don't believe there is a God, but I damn well hope there is, I hope I'm wrong, and I don't call what many people have a deep connection to "Nonsense". Have a good day.

You're right, the 'official astronomy and universe thread' is the best place to talk about heaven and hell

Dark energy could also be related to the Panchajanya (conch shell of Vishnu), you never know

 

[SpellowHouse]

"Nonsense". Nice way to describe the heartlfelt beliefs of many billions of people. Anyway, with knowing literally nothing about dark matter apart from its gravitational effects, dark matter could be literally anything. It could be something mystical, or it might not be. You have no clue, neither do I, and indeed in my 1st post on this in which you took offence to lmao I literally just said it's probably just some exotic particle we haven't yet discovered. But the truth at the moment is, we don't know.

Same for dark energy, apart from the it causing and speeding up the expansion of the universe, we have zero idea about it. I'll leave it that, because no offence you seem a bit of a twit. You probably think I'm religious, I'm not, I also don't believe there is a God, but I damn well hope there is, I hope I'm wrong, and I don't call what many people have a deep connection to "Nonsense". Have a good day.

Dark Matter is such a wonderful name, it's perfect for generating research grants. Especially if you happen to think its a particle, it's another excuse for all those experimental particle physicists to start building stuff, even though there isn't that much evidence that it is actually a particle at all.

Same with Dark Energy. Great name. But Einstein already said what it was. It's a constant. But because it has a wonderful name, it's a grant magnet, unlike all the other unexplained constants with really boring names.

 

[Tykey]

You're right, the 'official astronomy and universe thread' is the best place to talk about heaven and hell

Dark energy could also be related to the Panchajanya (conch shell of Vishnu), you never know

Mock all you want I'll be in heaven laughing at you lot rotting in Hell

Dark Matter is such a wonderful name, it's perfect for generating research grants. Especially if you happen to think its a particle, it's another excuse for all those experimental particle physicists to start building stuff, even though there isn't that much evidence that it is actually a particle at all.

Same with Dark Energy. Great name. But Einstein already said what it was. It's a constant. But because it has a wonderful name, it's a grant magnet, unlike all the other unexplained constants with really boring names.

Mayeb. I just think in all probability it's just some undiscovered particle(s) and energy type, like all particles and energy forces were at some point.

 

[SpellowHouse]

Mock all you want I'll be in heaven laughing at you lot rotting in Hell


Mayeb. I just think in all probability it's just some undiscovered particle(s) and energy type, like all particles and energy forces were at some point.

I think I lean slightly towards a modification to gravity theory required. After all, we only have experience of it in local space. It seems odd to me that the moment we observe anything distant, anything we have difficulty testing, everything is wrong, and we jump to the conclusion that it must be an "invisible particle"! Maybe it is, but something doesn't hang right about that to me. It also seems odd that this "jumped to conclusion" gives jobs to unemployed particle physicists!

As regards Dark Energy, there are many constants in this Universe that are unexplained (about 100 of them?). Why the Universe is as it is and why it does what it does. It seems very strange to me that we are obsessing over just one and completely ignoring the other 99. The other 99 we just accept as "constants". They are what they are and we can't explain them.

We may know what the universe is but we may never know why it is. The constants are a fundamental part of that "why". Why are they the value they are? I may be ignorant and stupid, but to me it came as no big surprise that the Cosmological constant was not what we expected it to be. We have known about it for a hundred years, the fact that it exists and could be something weird should not come as a surprise at all.

 

[Tykey]

I think I lean slightly towards a modification to gravity theory required. After all, we only have experience of it in local space. It seems odd to me that the moment we observe anything distant, anything we have difficulty testing, everything is wrong, and we jump to the conclusion that it must be an "invisible particle"! Maybe it is, but something doesn't hang right about that to me. It also seems odd that this "jumped to conclusion" gives jobs to unemployed particle physicists!

As regards Dark Energy, there are many constants in this Universe that are unexplained (about 100 of them?). Why the Universe is as it is and why it does what it does. It seems very strange to me that we are obsessing over just one and completely ignoring the other 99. The other 99 we just accept as "constants". They are what they are and we can't explain them.

We may know what the universe is but we may never know why it is. The constants are a fundamental part of that "why". Why are they the value they are? I may be ignorant and stupid, but to me it came as no big surprise that the Cosmological constant was not what we expected it to be. We have known about it for a hundred years, the fact that it exists and could be something weird should not come as a surprise at all.

I think, hopefully in our lifetimes, there will be some really far out realizations on what the universe is and where it came from. Aside from my Heaven and Hell theory (TM) , I sometimes think of the big bang being possibly a by product, or an accident, or done on purpose, of a very advanced alien race who created it in a laboratory along the same lines of what CERN are doing. Maybe they knew the heat death of a previous universe was inevitable (like some say it is with ours) and they thought ok we'll not let that happen, let's create a new one. Then I think about multi-verses and how if there were infinite universes then then they'll be infinite copies of earth with infinite exact copies of us.

 

[SpellowHouse]

I think, hopefully in our lifetimes, there will be some really far out realizations on what the universe is and where it came from. Aside from my Heaven and Hell theory (TM) , I sometimes think of the big bang being possibly a by product, or an accident, or done on purpose, of a very advanced alien race who created it in a laboratory along the same lines of what CERN are doing. Maybe they knew the heat death of a previous universe was inevitable (like some say it is with ours) and they thought ok we'll not let that happen, let's create a new one. Then I think about multi-verses and how if there were infinite universes then then they'll be infinite copies of earth with infinite exact copies of us.

Honestly, I think the jury is still out on the Big Bang. There are still problems. And whenever we settle for the obvious answer, turns out Mother Nature threw a curveball.

I think given that we have little understanding of why the Universe is the way it is, especially when it comes to time, dimensions, gravity and the forces, means there is plenty of room for surprises.

Oddly, in all of that, I do hold out that there may be alternate Universes. This is because of those constants I mentioned. Those constants need to be exactly the values they are, or the Universe would be very different and life could not possibly exist the way it does. The chances of that happening randomly are absolutely tiny. You are forced to conclude there is either a god or there must be lots of Universes with different values for those constants - only if there are billions of unsuitable universes can there be one or two suitable ones.

The other thing I hold out on, surprisingly, is travelling faster than the speed of light. Einstein didn't say it was impossible, he just said it was impractical! We don't know how to do it, but there may be a way. It would also makes sense, if there is a way, THAT's why we can't find advanced alien communications!! Because we aren't advanced enough to even detect those communications.

It's all wonderful stuff. I await answers!

 

[Tykey]

Honestly, I think the jury is still out on the Big Bang. There are still problems. And whenever we settle for the obvious answer, turns out Mother Nature threw a curveball.

I think given that we have little understanding of why the Universe is the way it is, especially when it comes to time, dimensions, gravity and the forces, means there is plenty of room for surprises.

Oddly, in all of that, I do hold out that there may be alternate Universes. This is because of those constants I mentioned. Those constants need to be exactly the values they are, or the Universe would be very different and life could not possibly exist the way it does. The chances of that happening randomly are absolutely tiny. You are forced to conclude there is either a god or there must be lots of Universes with different values for those constants - only if there are billions of unsuitable universes can there be one or two suitable ones.

The other thing I hold out on, surprisingly, is travelling faster than the speed of light. Einstein didn't say it was impossible, he just said it was impractical! We don't know how to do it, but there may be a way. It would also makes sense, if there is a way, THAT's why we can't find advanced alien communications!! Because we aren't advanced enough to even detect those communications.

It's all wonderful stuff. I await answers!

There is faster than light phenomena that has been demonstrated, quantum entanglement. Einstein called iirc spooky action at a distance. Iirc if something of mass approaches and gets upto light speed its energy and mass become infinite, so that would put a dampener on things.

 

[keyser van someone]

I'll just casually throw infinity into the mix. 'When' 'I' don't 'exist' 'time' (and 'space') has no 'meaning'. Language, Tiger. Maybe 'I'll' popup in the next universe with 5 dimensions and 3 genitals, looking forward.

When - time is completely temporary concept, only exists in this universe

I - A collection of self-sustaining atoms/molecules/cells that exist for about 85 years.

exist - This universe exists and there's stuff in it, stuff like me and jam, for now.

Space - Spatial dimensions only exist in this universe, and 6 others, the other universes don't see what the big deal is.

 

[EsaT]

Thanks! They look good. Are all three pretty much the same spec?

Forgot to mention that looking for local/nearby astronomy club would be good thing to do.
They migth have someone upgrading to bigger telescope, or downsizing because of getting old, giving second hand options.
At the least that could give chance to see telescopes and how they're used in real life.

Here's some listing of astronomy clubs in UK:

UK Astronomy Clubs | 2024 List | Go Astronomy

Find amateur astronomy clubs in the UK that feature meetings, viewing nights, star parties, and astronomy programs

go-astronomy.com