The protected status of being pregnant...aka being off sick as much as you like

[Vexr]

The team I'm in is experiencing a massive issue with an employee who is off sick around about 33%-40% of the time. Very rarely will she be well enough to work a full week. She's now in her second trimester. Not being an expert on the subject of pregnancy, I've heard morning sickness should settle down after the first trimester.. but no, this girl's sickness is apparently only getting worse.

The big kicker here is, everyone on our team works from home except for one office day per fortnight.

The person who got this girl her job with us (her best friend since childhood) is also massively ****** off, and is openly stating to us all her sickness is 'not genuine.' This girl apparently can't face her work-from-home workload, but she's perfectly capable of face-timing and chilling out on social media all day while she's off sick.

I've only been with this company for a few months, but I've already suspected this particular girl of narcissistic personality disorder, a complete lack of being able to take responsibility, and a general superiority complex and hostile undiplomatic attitude. I think I can add to this list her being of low moral character going by her willingness to fake illness in order to chill out, throwing everyone else in our small team under the bus (she's not bothered if someone else is off on holiday, she's taking her precious fully paid sick time if works looks a bit tough, and if everyone else goes under the bus due to that, then sod everyone else '

We've got two women in our small team of five who've been pregnant before, and working from home they never missed a single day due to pregnancy-related sickness.

It's apparent our team is now incensed by this girl's actions and the evidence her sickness is not genuine. Yet in this country we and our management are absolutely terrified of her ever picking up upon our displeasure at her faking her sickness given her protected status of being pregnant. Off the record, the words we exchange are along the lines of "I hope she takes her maternity leave ASAP and never comes back". But this is discrimination and ill-feeling, for which all hard working people in the team must hang and the pregnant woman faking sickness must be compensated for any perceived discrimination she feels.

So, here in the real world between regular people, how do we actually deal with this sort of scenario? Or do teams like this just suffer a slow death as everyone left looks for jobs elsewhere, and its left for management to redesign the jobs under them with a more versatile high-turnover workforce?

I've previously worked for the NHS, and it seems to me females of low moral character have sickness going for them all the time. There was one who had a senior position in a team but claimed issues with sarcoidosis. Instead of officially calling in sick, she'd declare herself off as a day in lieu. Eventually higher management finally reached the compromise of her taking a six month sabbatical, where she was suddenly well enough to go travelling abroad. In the meantime the other two full time colleagues transferred to elsewhere in the NHS, leaving one woman who worked 3 days a week PT and a bunch of lowly paid/no security temps to take over the wrecked team that'd been burnt out in the wake of her fake illness.

Another female colleague also played the system where she takes 6 months off with depression/anxiety/stress every two years or so, and then return for just enough time to keep her eligible for another 6 months off at full pay. So repeats the pattern.

Meanwhile the younger generation are living in massive precariat economy times and have no protection whatsoever despite busting their nut for their employers. Makes me wonder if the US system of no protected status whatsoever for employees is actually correct.

Not to exceed the scope of this post, but seriously, what practical steps should we be taking when we have problematic illness (especially fake illness) amongst employees who have a protected status of some sort? Is there anything else that can be done but abandon ship or stick it out and do massive amounts of unpaid overtime to compensate?

 

[Rroff]

This kind of stuff exposes how cut to the bone many companies are in that they struggle to justify having someone covering in this kind of situation.

I wouldn't take the face-time thing alone as an indication it might not be genuine though pregnancy can effect different people in different ways - one of the girls that used to work with me went from outgoing and full of energy to withdrawn and acting like she had depression and eventually handed her notice in and took a few months off (we rehired her later) - personally I think her iron levels were low/out of whack though I'd have thought they'd be hot on checking stuff like that. While other employees you'd have barely known they were pregnant if not for the bump working full on to almost the last minute.

Not to exceed the scope of this post, but seriously, what practical steps do/should we be taking when we have problematic illness (especially fake illness) amongst employees who have a protected status of some sort?

An employee where you can identify a long term pattern of taking the mick (though helps if it matches one of the standards for testing such) especially if there is evidence of them acting contrary to being ill while off isn't necessarily protected - it is perfectly fine for the company to take it up with them and even potentially take it to a disciplinary situation in the long run if it is proving disruptive for the company.

 

[Hotwired]

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/w...r-unfair-dismissal-claims-long-term-sickness/

It's very long and tedious to sack someone who's off sick and the company needs to be careful about it.

Until the process is complete, yes, you and the company are forced to suck it up.

 

[Vexr]

An employee where you can identify a long term pattern of taking the mick (though helps if it matches one of the standards for testing such) especially if there is evidence of them acting contrary to being ill while off isn't necessarily protected - it is perfectly fine for the company to take it up with them and even potentially take it to a disciplinary situation in the long run if it is proving disruptive for the company.

Management have stated that as soon as she said she was pregnant, the Bradford score goes right out of the window and no measurements of absence like that apply - there is no longer any metric for her 'sick leave' as she has protected status. The old girl who did her 'taking a day off in lieu' constantly instead of declaring herself off sick also attempted to circumvent the Bradford system, and only eventually got dobbed in by her close friend who was also a senior (but part timer) in the team, and not before the other two full time colleagues were leaving for greener pastures, leaving quite the crisis behind them.

This job though doesn't have the resilience or scalability of workload to handle such things like the NHS does, where there were thousands doing similiar roles in the NHS, yet in this team, as far as I know, there's barely two dozen qualified for this job in England amongst the alliance of companies we have.

 

[TonTom]

She reminds me of a waste of space that used to work in my office. This person must have been sick 40% of the time, it wasn’t due to pregnancy. Thankfully in the end she left due to the long commute.

 

[Lokai]

Currently going through this exact same thing in our team, office based though, doesn't do a full week, constant sick notes etc. One thing hr can do is force early maternity leave which obviously has a knock on affect at the other end. If they would do though is another thing.......

 

[Mason-]

All I would say is that pregnancy for some women is much harder than it is for others. Some genuinely do experience sickness throughout the whole term. Not saying that some don't take the biscuit, but she could be genuine.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Not being an expert on the subject of pregnancy, I've heard morning sickness should settle down after the first trimester.. but no, this girl's sickness is apparently only getting worse.

Being no expert myself, but still with a few degrees more experience than you appear to have... Take whatever you may have heard or read and throw it out the window. Some women might have not one single sick day, while others may be reduced to a constantly puking wreck for every single day and night of their nine month pregnancy... with all manner of variations between, as well as plenty of other symptoms not even fully understood yet.
This is not a car manual. All kinds of things can happen.

This girl apparently can't face her work-from-home workload, but she's perfectly capable of face-timing and chilling out on social media all day while she's off sick.

Farcebook statuses and things take mere moments and don't exactly require much in the way of concentration, do they?
I'm guessing this work of yours requires staying focussed and clear-headed, making good decisions and having had a good night's sleep, without suffering from cramps, aches, back problems, raging screaming ************* hormones, and all the other **** she's going through?

I've only been with this company for a few months, but I've already suspected this particular girl of narcissistic personality disorder, a complete lack of being able to take responsibility, and a general superiority complex and hostile undiplomatic attitude.

Doesn't mean she's faking it, though.

We've got two women in our small team of five who've been pregnant before, and working from home they never missed a single day due to pregnancy-related sickness.

We have about 70-odd here in this team, with widely varying experiences...

It's apparent our team is now incensed by this girl's actions and the evidence her sickness is not genuine.

You have nothing but heresay... and were her symptoms to be proven genuine, your company would have been messing with a pregnant woman. That can often bring legal pain down on them like a ton of bricks.

So, here in the real world between regular people, how do we actually deal with this sort of scenario?

I could say something here, but that would very likely get me banned... use your imagination.

Or do teams like this just suffer a slow death as everyone left looks for jobs elsewhere, and its left for management to redesign the jobs under them with a more versatile high-turnover workforce?

Why have management not factored in possibilities like this already?
What happens if someone in your team died and there was no contingency? Would you still be having a bitch about them? Would you be secretly suspecting they were faking it?
Management should have planned for such eventualities.

I've previously worked for the NHS, and it seems to me females of low moral character have sickness going for them all the time.

I've previously worked for the NHS too. I wish more of these women had taken time off sick, but instead NHS ruled they had to come in and soldier through, despite it making the rest of us sick as well!

There was one who had a senior position in a team but claimed issues with sarcoidosis.

That's neither pleasant, nor especially low on the list of concerns, though. Something like 100,000 people die from it every year, and it's often a long disease to suffer through.
Presumably it was all medically certified though, so you can't really argue with that...

Makes me wonder if the US system of no protected status whatsoever for employees is actually correct.

Given how many of them eat their own guns, I'd guess not.....

but seriously, what practical steps should we be taking when we have problematic illness

Have you tried... I dunno.... recruiting short-term extra staff, or something?
You could call it, say, Maternity Cover.

Management have stated that as soon as she said she was pregnant, the Bradford score goes right out of the window and no measurements of absence like that apply

So?
Why are you treating her like a measured statistic instead of a human?
If that was me, I'd **** off on sick too!!

as far as I know, there's barely two dozen qualified for this job in England amongst the alliance of companies we have.

Which is what, exactly?
It might help if we knew more about the work and where else you could recruit from...
I'd also want to know why management haven't already seen this shortcoming and sorted a backup plan. With such a short supply of talent, surely you'd be getting headhunted by the other companies left right and centre?

 

[Rroff]

Management have stated that as soon as she said she was pregnant, the Bradford score goes right out of the window and no measurements of absence like that apply - there is no longer any metric for her 'sick leave' as she has protected status. The old girl who did her 'taking a day off in lieu' constantly instead of declaring herself off sick also attempted to circumvent the Bradford system, and only eventually got dobbed in by her close friend who was also a senior (but part timer) in the team, and not before the other two full time colleagues were leaving for greener pastures, leaving quite the crisis behind them.

This job though doesn't have the resilience or scalability of workload to handle such things like the NHS does, where there were thousands doing similiar roles in the NHS, yet in this team, as far as I know, there's barely two dozen qualified for this job in England amongst the alliance of companies we have.

Wasn't really talking so much about pregnancy there but the other situations you talked about.

 

[morbid42]

If not genuine, dont give her any proper work, or give her tasks she hates. Eat strong smelling foods beside her - garlic kipper toasties with blue cheese and anchovies

 

[Energize]

Have you tried... I dunno.... recruiting short-term extra staff, or something?
You could call it, say, Maternity Cover.

The problem is no one wants a temporary job where the substantive post holder could return at any time, especially not a professional level one.

I've worked for organisations employing over 10,000 staff and maternity leave was a big problem because you just can't recruit to cover maternity, we had a much easier time finding people willing to work zero hours contracts than cover maternity, the best case scenario that you could hope for was that you would find someone willing to do it as a secondment, something that small organisations don't have the luxury of.

 

[kindai]

A company who I contracted for had a great way to fob people like this out the door, give them data entry jobs that cant be automated, in this case they would go find their old rolodexes of literally tens of thousands of old customers and create an extremely tedious way of entering it.

Its not hard work, so claiming its too stressful is out the window, but its soul destroying and many people would rather quit then sit there doing that.

 

[dowie]

A company who I contracted for had a great way to fob people like this out the door, give them data entry jobs that cant be automated, in this case they would go find their old rolodexes of literally tens of thousands of old customers and create an extremely tedious way of entering it.

Its not hard work, so claiming its too stressful is out the window, but its soul destroying and many people would rather quit then sit there doing that.

That's like a really obvious constructive dismissal win - might as well just sack her in the first place. You can't just make an employee do some random mundane task unless that is really within the scope of their regular job.

Like if the employee is employed to be a a developer say then you've got no justification to take them away from programming and get them to enter stuff from old rolodexes etc..

 

[kindai]

That's like a really obvious constructive dismissal win - might as well just sack her in the first place. You can't just make an employee do some random mundane task unless that is really within the scope of their regular job.

Like if the employee is employed to be a a developer say then you've got no justification to take them away from programming and get them to enter stuff from old rolodexes etc..

Most contracts will specify "other work as needed" or similar wording, and digitizing paper records can be easily justified as a need for the business.

Even easier if a performance review is done or similar, and an agreement is entered by both sides to give the employee less stressful work.

 

[dowie]

Most contracts will specify "other work as needed" or similar wording, and digitizing paper records can be easily justified as a need for the business.

Even easier if a performance review is done or similar, and an agreement is entered by both sides to give the employee less stressful work.

I doubt anyone in a professional role is going to agree to mundane data entry as part of a performance review simply because they're pregnant and have been taking time off - that would be yet more ammunition for a tribunal tbh.. also taking days off doesn't mean that they're necessarily stressed or unable to do their regular job in the days that they are in work.

Honestly I reckon if you ran that idea past most HR people and/or just about any employment lawyer as some deliberate ploy to get rid of someone they'd not be impressed.

 

[Heisenberg]

My Mrs had genuine sickness from day 1 until she gave birth to our daughter. In hospital 3 times with dehydration. Trying to compare other people's pregnancies is pointless.

 

[kindai]

I doubt anyone in a professional role is going to agree to mundane data entry as part of a performance review simply because they're pregnant and have been taking time off - that would be yet more ammunition for a tribunal tbh.. also taking days off doesn't mean that they're necessarily stressed or unable to do their regular job in the days that they are in work.

Honestly I reckon if you ran that idea past most HR people and/or just about any employment lawyer as some deliberate ploy to get rid of someone they'd not be impressed.

Well I can tell you this company did it to several people, so *shrug*

 

[ttaskmaster]

The problem is no one wants a temporary job where the substantive post holder could return at any time, especially not a professional level one.

Sure they do. See them all the time. They will often last for a year or more, due to post-birth maternity leave and flexi-hours for child care, and many people find it either a good stepping stone to other things or even a step up into such a role full time. Half our asset planning department began life as maternity cover.

I've worked for organisations employing over 10,000 staff and maternity leave was a big problem because you just can't recruit to cover maternity

Working for one with over 35,000 staff, it was pretty easy to have people at least semi-trained and ready to provide cover.
Fewer people to choose from in a small organisation, but that means it's even more critical to have some kind of cover plan, because accidents do happen... No-one should be irreplaceable.

 

[dowie]

Well I can tell you this company did it to several people, so *shrug*

That doesn’t mean it is a good idea in general. What were their regular jobs? Were they already doing some sort of admin work for example?

 

[jaybee]

Often contractors can work out cheaper in situations like this. They can be more cost effective over a set time span and don't get sick/holiday pay. In terms of specifically pregnancy, I think a lot of women milk it yes, it is an issue. A lot of women are completely the other way and are embarrassed to be made a fuss off and do everything the same right up to the day they go into labour.