The Taser issue .....

[Amp34]

But did that misconduct occur before or after they joined that unit?

The other poster could still be completely correct in saying that they require good records to join. It doesn't necessarily contradict what he posted.

My point wasn't that they recruited them with previous misconduct, rather that they committed misconduct while in their posts in "elite" units. Considering at least a few of them have been reported as firearms misconducts there are probably more like that (although the majority are probably less serious). If you can't fully trust an "elite" unit with more stringent controls then I worry about what would happen if you allowed the entire police force to have access to lethal weapons.

Unfortunately there are some bad apples in every force, do we really want even more bad apples to have access to dangerous distance weapons? Unfortunately misplaced loyalty will mean most will still be backed up by other police officers, like we see with the Plebgate scandal and other events (potentially including the man who had his neck broken by six police officers).

Two isn't a load and no, none have according to the mod log.

I was giving those as two examples, just in case there were more. Seems they weren't missing now I look again, he didn't quote me and my reply didn't post, but as I was on a train it was probably an issue my end.

 

[Zbornak]

With respect to Tasers you have the same problem. A quick two day course really shouldn't be what is needed before handing someone a potentially lethal weapon, however would the police be able to afford to do a proper intensive course for every police officer in the country? I doubt it.

Given a baton is a potentially lethal weapon, how many days would you want to train officers in it's use?

 

[Amp34]

There's a big difference between a close weapon you have to physically hit someone with and a weapon that fires from a safe distance with the press of a button.

On the other hand I'm sure they probably spend a couple of days alone on that. Perhaps if tasers do come into regular use within the police force as part of the training they should shoot themselves with them, like CS (at least in some police forces).

 

[dowie]

My point wasn't that they recruited them with previous misconduct, rather that they committed misconduct while in their posts in "elite" units.

I was just pointing out that you've replied to the other poster with a contradiction 'not necessarily' then posted the information which hasn't actually contradicted his post.

Unfortunately there are some bad apples in every force, do we really want even more bad apples to have access to dangerous distance weapons? Unfortunately misplaced loyalty will mean most will still be backed up by other police officers, like we see with the Plebgate scandal and other events (potentially including the man who had his neck broken by six police officers).

I think perhaps bodycams could go a long way to deterring 'bad apples' - along with not dropping standards in training in the use of these weapons if they were to be issued to a larger number.

 

[AHarvey]

I've nothing against the police being issued them, nor the cost, however I would also want the training to be public knowledge, official rules set out and body cams for all officers using them.

 

[Zbornak]

There's a big difference between a close weapon you have to physically hit someone with and a weapon that fires from a safe distance with the press of a button.

On the other hand I'm sure they probably spend a couple of days alone on that. Perhaps if tasers do come into regular use within the police force as part of the training they should shoot themselves with them, like CS (at least in some police forces).

So do you think batons are less dangerous than Tasers?

 

[Tefal]

So do you think batons are less dangerous than Tasers?

pretty much, it takes a hell of a lot of effort beat someone to death, an electrically induced heart attack though not so much just needs the person being tasered to be unlucky.

 

[Zbornak]

pretty much, it takes a hell of a lot of effort beat someone to death, an electrically induced heart attack though not so much just needs the person being tasered to be unlucky.

Would you endorse officers being hit with Taser during training?

 

[Tefal]

Would you endorse officers being hit with Taser during training?

thought they were as part of the standard training for them like cs spray? but then again they're also subject to medicals and have defibrilators close to hand unlike the people who they are used on outside of training.

but that seems a random follow up question. do you really think a baton is more dangerous than a taser?

 

[dunker]

why not just fit everyone with a shock collar/necklass that electroctes anyone that does'nt obey and submit immediatlly to a police order?

nothing to hide nothing to fear right.

 

[Zbornak]

thought they were as part of the standard training for them like cs spray? but then again they're also subject to medicals and have defibrilators close to hand unlike the people who they are used on outside of training.

but that seems a random follow up question. do you really think a baton is more dangerous than a taser?

Officers don't get tasered as part of their training.

I asked that follow up question to find out if you think officers should get batoned as part of their training? Given that batons are less dangerous?

I think a baton carries a much more higher risk of injury than taser and a study in Canada supported this with instances of hospitalisation far higher after baton usage than taser usage.

In terms of lethality, yes taser carries a higher risk - but this higher risk is alongside an already high risk situation. Taser has been used in the UK for well over a decade and it's been used a bucket-load of times in that period with only a handful of cases of the taser discharge being found to be unnecessary and even fewer resulting in the death of the person of it being used on.

And since you mention CS spray, I don't know about you but I remember back in the day when all the officers where issued with CS, there were similar lethality debates. The theory being the extreme pain and panic caused by CS could exacerbate an existing cardiac problem (exactly the same argument for taser, but with the electrical element instead). And yes, this has contributed in the deaths of a few people. But unfortunately, you can't always be aware of how someone is going to react to any use of force. I know of a police officer who merely told someone they were under arrest and the suspect collapsed and suffered a fatal heart attack. That is technically a death in police contact.

Anyway, back the topic - tasers. Not perfect but there never is perfection when you're trying to stop a suspect who presents significant danger to themselves or others.

 

[dunker]

danger to themselves? taser taser taser 50k volts to the chest pretty much anyone with a slightly dodgy heart is getting, dead.

i'd rather take a bullitt to the knee.

 

[Zbornak]

danger to themselves? taser taser taser 50k volts to the chest pretty much anyone with a slightly dodgy heart is getting, dead.

i'd rather take a bullitt to the knee.

That's very noble of you; if you want to support the wider roll out of police getting guns then go ahead. But I know I'd rather get tasered!

 

[dunker]

i'd take a gun shot over a heart attack anyday of the day thankyou. i'd rather take a bullitt to both knees than a chest taser shot.

there is no increased threat to our referees/police other than what our government have pretended to create.

 

[genan]

I want them all wearing personal body cams, first.

+1


Also whatever happened to the foam (yeah right) gun, looks like a safer albeit sillier alternative

 

[Burnsy2023]

In terms of lethality, yes taser carries a higher risk - but this higher risk is alongside an already high risk situation.

I have seen no rigorous evidence to support any claims that Taser has a higher risk of lethality than any other piece of PPE officers carry.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

I have seen no rigorous evidence to support any claims that Taser has a higher risk of lethality than any other piece of PPE officers carry.

Me neither.

I am not for Taser being issued to officers against their will but I have no objections to a further roll out for frontline officers.

Some have suggested that the issue of Taser will not prevent a terror attack. Nobody has said that it will. Others have said that it shouldn't be discharged at someone wearing a suicide vest - that's a well known no no and if you are within the Taser distance limit of 21 feet facing someone wearing a vest then you would be pretty much screwed anyway if it went off. Nobody has said otherwise, even those advocating further roll out.

Others have questioned what use it would be against an active shooter scenario such as what we saw in Paris or, although not terror related, the shootings in Cumbria a few years back ? Not a lot. Nobody has said that an AK can be countered with a Taser.

What some may be missing though is that the Lee Rigby murder, as callous as I may sound and I assure you I don't mean to sound that way, was simplistic and easy to plan. A car and edged weapons were all that was used and I personally believe - and I'm not aware of any intel that it is going to happen - that that type of spontaneous act is what you will likely see in the UK and should it happen, the police must be able to defend both the public and themselves and Taser us the bridge between standard PPE and routine arming of police which incidentally has very few fans within the police service, myself included. I have said before I am against routine arming if police officers and the current threat has not changed that. While we're on, some have said we didn't issue Taser to police officers during the Troubles and when the IRA declared all a target so why now ? Was Taser even invented then, certainly in its current X-26 form ?

The majority of cops are single crewed these days and it's a long time since I was crewed up. That's the way it is now as austerity has cut swathes through the frontline despite the Tories saying otherwise.

Police receive fairly good OST these days with self defence and pre-emptive strikes taught including use of batons and incapacitant spray but against someone armed with a knife or a 4x2 they have their limitations and Taser helps to bridge some if those limitations.

What the press don't seem to publish much is that the majority of incidents where Taser is used are resolved with it being drawn and people red dotted often give up without a discharge.

For terrorism alone then I don't agree 100% but for the wider issue of public and police safety then I agree with further roll out. Taser is the same class of weapon as CS in terms of the Firearms Act, Section 5.

 

[ganesh]

I'm against this, because I don't think the training will be rigorous enough nor the rules for using it be strictly enforced enough. I'd be too afraid that some police officers would use it in unnecessary situations, as we have seen so many times in America. Where it's not unusual for it to be used out of spite, or as the first option when challenging a suspect.

Some of the videos of its use in America are absolutely abhorrent, police officers assaulting and torturing the public like thugs isn't acceptable, and I would see them in prison.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Training for Taser is thorough.