The (un)Official VMWare ESXi thread.

tbz_ck said:
Its not enterprise class. Go for HP. Get a nice Gen 8 machine and you will be laughing
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Sorry, but would disagree with this.

Supermicro products are designed and built for enterprise environments and use enterprise componants. What they do not do is provide the support services for 2h/4h/NDB etc warranty replacements.

Dell have used Supermicro boards in their products in the past (rebadged). One off the top of my head is the Dell C6100 (initial build) used a Supermicro X7 board.

Having said that, if experience of building ESXi servers is low then a ready built solution (HP/Dell/IBM) would be an easier way to go.

For a whitebox, the Supermicro X9SCM-iiF is a great E3 board ofr ESXi with the iiF variant using chipsets for the NICs that are fully supported by ESXi (the original didn't).

I would suggest load testing some hardware before fully commiting. Disk IO and ram are usually sticking points for virtualisation.

RB
 
RimBlock said:
Sorry, but would disagree with this.

Supermicro products are designed and built for enterprise environments and use enterprise componants. What they do not do is provide the support services for 2h/4h/NDB etc warranty replacements.

Dell have used Supermicro boards in their products in the past (rebadged). One off the top of my head is the Dell C6100 (initial build) used a Supermicro X7 board.

Having said that, if experience of building ESXi servers is low then a ready built solution (HP/Dell/IBM) would be an easier way to go.

For a whitebox, the Supermicro X9SCM-iiF is a great E3 board ofr ESXi with the iiF variant using chipsets for the NICs that are fully supported by ESXi (the original didn't).

I would suggest load testing some hardware before fully commiting. Disk IO and ram are usually sticking points for virtualisation.

RB
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The bit in bold is why I don't consider them enterprise class. ;)
 
tbz_ck said:
The bit in bold is why I don't consider them enterprise class. ;)
Click to expand...

You would say the same of Intel then ?.

Ok, I get your point but I would just split it up and say the hardware is enterprise class but there is no backup support services above the standard RTB warranty :D.

RB
 
1U Supermicro 4 Hotswap SAS/Sata Bays
Supermicro ServerBoard, Dual GB LAN, IPMI
Intel Xeon E3-1290v2
32Gb DDR3 ECC
X2 - Intel 520 series 240Gb SSD (Setup as Raid 1)
X2 - 2Tb Seagate 7200rpm Sata


equivalent would be something like:

HP Proliant DL360e : You can get it loads of places. Here is quite cheap

Spec:

Processor Intel® Xeon® E5-2420 (6 core, 1.9 GHz, 15MB, 95W)
Number of processors 1
Processor core available 6
Memory, standard 8GB
Memory slots 12 DIMM slots
Maximum memory 384GB
Memory type PC3L-10600R-9 (Low voltage DIMM)
Expansion slots 2
Network controller (1) 1Gb 366i Ethernet Adapter 4 Ports
Power supply type (1) 460 W Common Slot Gold Hot Plug
Storage controller (1) Dynamic Smart Array B320i/512MB FBWC
Optical drive type 9.5mm SATA DVD-RW JackBlack
Form factor (fully configured) Rack (1U)
Warranty - year(s) (parts/labor/onsite) 3/1/1

You will need to purchase the SATA disks and extra RAM.

The RAID array controller supports ESXi 5.1 with the custom HP ESXi image: You get the Flash backed write cache on it which helps no end with performance.

I've not personally played with a DL360 GEN 8 but I have used the G6 and G7 ranges quite extensively for ESXi platforms and they have never let me down.
 
RimBlock said:
You would say the same of Intel then ?.

Ok, I get your point but I would just split it up and say the hardware is enterprise class but there is no backup support services above the standard RTB warranty :D.

RB
Click to expand...

ha. :) Next business day is critical in my opinion. I guess it all depends how much your downtime is worth to you. Look at this experience with Supermicro servers and support (granted there are many GOOD experiences but when someone has had a nightmare its worth finding out what can go wrong)

From Here

So here is my Supermicro report. It's very long but a good read on where they could be a great company but fall short.

I had planned on writing this for a week but since someone brought it up this is as good of a time as any.

The ultimate answer is no, Supermicro is not ready for a prime time spot. I think they have their place but not every where.

My original idea was that I could buy SM at nearly 2:1 for redundancy. This was not really true for the old E5xxx series Xeon's. SM saved you minimal amounts of money and no point in buying them.

However for Sandy Bridge Xeon's the price difference is dramatic. For the price of 1 Dell/HP/Lenovo E5 Xeon, 2ghz with HT, 8TB of NL-SAS storage, 24GB ram, etc I could buy 2 SM servers for about 15 percent more.

Now warranty is not as big of a deal.

So we bought 2 as a test.

1 was for a customer and the other was for us internally.

The customer machine was a E5XXX series. They had an older E5XXX Series Xeon server that was not on the VMWare HCL and we wanted to move to VMware for DR/backup. We went through all the pro's and con's, plus this customer is kind of a test bed, they get a great deal for trying new things.

Server showed up from SM. First off physical quality is much better. Good fan setup, shrouding, air flow, hot swap tray quality. I was really impressed.

Installed VMware, installed the OS's. They are a 40 person company running 100 percent Remote Desktop. Server ran perfectly, very fast. We used most of the old parts from the other server except we moved up to 8 1TB NL-SAS drives.

However when I went to install the 2nd CPU the server would not boot. Here is where the problems began.

Took 3 days of phone calls to get someone on the phone from SM, problem #1. We did some basic trouble shooting and they decided to replace the server for us. With 1 CPU it ran flawlessly This was 8 weeks ago, 2 months.

Fill out their very difficult to decipher RMA form and wait 3 more days. Get an email back saying they will not cross ship the server, we had to send it in for repair.

I email them back the server is brand new, you don't cross ship new equipment. They reply they do only if the server is 18 months old or newer...well I just bought this one 2 weeks ago.

Find out it had an invoice date in 2010 which is when the reseller bought it, they did not go based on the day I bought it which made no sense.

First, huge language barrier. Every SM employee I spoke with was Asian, no problem there but the English was poor and made it difficult to work through a detailed problem like the RMA issue.

Long story short, 4 weeks to get them to RMA and cross ship the system once all the crap was figured out.

New server worked perfect with both CPU's, not a single software related issue.

So a few problems. The obvious one is channel management, they do not seem to have good partner/channel management. The 2010 invoice issue was a problem and they threw it back at the vendor who was an approved SM reseller. If they are an approved reseller SM should step up a bit more, thats why we sign the deals with sign with HP/Lenovo, etc to meet a certain standard.

Time to get a hold of tech support was an issue. The RMA process taking 3-4 days was an issue. Language barrier was a bit of a problem. Tech support language barrier was not an issue but the RMA process with the detail we were dealing with and the challenges in explaining certain things was difficult.

They did not even want to pay for shipping back, but thankfully forgot to get a CC number for shipping back so if they wanted their server back, they had to pay for shipping, which they should have in the first place.

Now the 2nd server. Ordered up a new SB Xeon chassis on the VMware list. Used a HP i410 SAS RAID controller along with a E5 2ghz, same 8 1tb NL-SAS, 36 GB of ram.

Why 36GB? Because they said it had to be installed in series of 3, triple channel so 3 sets of 12GB of ram. I did not think this was the case with the SB Xeon's so I had ordered 32GB.

Get the server, put in the ram, going through the ram assignment book and it says triple channel...hmmm...I call and order another 4GB of ram for 9 sticks total. I start off with 6 sticks and all is fine.

Get the spare stick, put it in, no boot. They send me a different brand than before. Call the vendor, go through 4 days of back and forth over brand of ram and why its not working to find out the book is wrong,its dual channel and SM sends me a new layout, put in 32GB of ram, works perfect.

Sits on my desk for 2 weeks and I try all kinds of stuff on it running under ESXI 5.0 U1. Works perfect.

This was for my software dev at his house. He takes it, hangs it on the wall, dies within an hour.

Call SM and after a week they send out a new server. Set it up, won't boot...start removing RAM and it boots. Upon physical inspection a capacitor FALLS OFF THE MOTHERBOARD.

Another 2 weeks go buy playing RMA games and they send a new motherboard. Set it up, goto plug in VGA, connector is bent, not the pins, the entire connector.

So no video but ESXI boots and works fine, in fact its running right now with the bent parts in it.

Another 2 weeks and new MB is sitting here waiting to go in.

Huge fights over who is paying for shipping and all the rest with them.

So it continues but when they work they work great but it was too much hassle. I do believe there is a place for a low priced server. Intel makes a chassis with identical specs for $300 more that might be better to look at if your looking for cheap and 24/7 is not important to you.

It was worth the experiment at least. If your in the Supermicro price point I would seriously look at the Intel chassis. Similar price point but I can only assume Intel would be a much better company to deal with but your still not going to get 24/7 support.
 
tbz_ck said:
ha. :) Next business day is critical in my opinion. I guess it all depends how much your downtime is worth to you. Look at this experience with Supermicro servers and support (granted there are many GOOD experiences but when someone has had a nightmare its worth finding out what can go wrong)
Click to expand...

Will read when home. I am sure it will be quite interesting.

For my part I sell both (also IBM and Intel). I also have a HP server (ML110 G7) and currently 5 dell servers at home (C6100 4 node, dual processor cloud servers) for a Hadoop / Lustre cluster I am building.

The only unit that has failed is the HP ML110, but HP came round the next business day and replaced the processor and it was back up again. I also had a Procurve fail and that was also replaced the next business day. I cannot fault HPs service.

The only Supermicro issue I have seen was where a customer incorrectly flashed and bricked their motherboard board. The Supermicro distributor took the board back and replaced it without charge. It did take a while though. Now this board was a Q67 model so not enterprise level and not a big seller so they had no local stock and had to send it to the manufacturers.

In an Enterprise environment, support counts for a lot but you can get thrid party support packages and link them with vendor hardware if needed. I would happly deploy Supermicro servers but I would make sure there was an adequate support contract to back them up for a business environment.

Oh, not sure I would class an E5-2420 on the same level as a E3-1290v2. Passmark has the E5-2420 closer to the E3-1230v1 and the E3-1290v2 closer to the E5-2640.

The initial pricing of the HP is very good in that link but adding the drives that are also covered by the same warranty and support is likely to double the initial cost if not tripple it. The pricing where I am is much higher but then the DL360s are the 'p' varient and come with the 26XX processors. Still around twice the price though...

RB
 
RimBlock said:
Will read when home. I am sure it will be quite interesting.

For my part I sell both (also IBM and Intel). I also have a HP server (ML110 G7) and currently 5 dell servers at home (C6100 4 node, dual processor cloud servers) for a Hadoop / Lustre cluster I am building.

The only unit that has failed is the HP ML110, but HP came round the next business day and replaced the processor and it was back up again. I also had a Procurve fail and that was also replaced the next business day. I cannot fault HPs service.

The only Supermicro issue I have seen was where a customer incorrectly flashed and bricked their motherboard board. The Supermicro distributor took the board back and replaced it without charge. It did take a while though. Now this board was a Q67 model so not enterprise level and not a big seller so they had no local stock and had to send it to the manufacturers.

In an Enterprise environment, support counts for a lot but you can get thrid party support packages and link them with vendor hardware if needed. I would happly deploy Supermicro servers but I would make sure there was an adequate support contract to back them up for a business environment.

Oh, not sure I would class an E5-2420 on the same level as a E3-1290v2. Passmark has the E5-2420 closer to the E3-1230v1 and the E3-1290v2 closer to the E5-2640.

The initial pricing of the HP is very good in that link but adding the drives that are also covered by the same warranty and support is likely to double the initial cost if not tripple it. The pricing where I am is much higher but then the DL360s are the 'p' varient and come with the 26XX processors. Still around twice the price though...

RB
Click to expand...

I don't think the CPU is going to be much of an issue (it'll be a low end system if his choice of SATA disks are anything to go by). That said the E5 is 6-Core and the E3 is quad core (not that it make much difference unless you have an application that is highly multithreaded)

Other than hard disks I've not seen an HP server or switch fail in over 15 years in IT. Might be blind luck of course! I'm also impressed with the level of R&D that HP invest into their enterprise products. The Gen 8 stuff (and the upcoming Moonshot micro blades) are incredibly well thought out and engineered.
 
tbz_ck said:
1U Supermicro 4 Hotswap SAS/Sata Bays
Supermicro ServerBoard, Dual GB LAN, IPMI
Intel Xeon E3-1290v2
32Gb DDR3 ECC
X2 - Intel 520 series 240Gb SSD (Setup as Raid 1)
X2 - 2Tb Seagate 7200rpm Sata


equivalent would be something like:

HP Proliant DL360e : You can get it loads of places. Here is quite cheap

Spec:

Processor Intel® Xeon® E5-2420 (6 core, 1.9 GHz, 15MB, 95W)
Number of processors 1
Processor core available 6
Memory, standard 8GB
Memory slots 12 DIMM slots
Maximum memory 384GB
Memory type PC3L-10600R-9 (Low voltage DIMM)
Expansion slots 2
Network controller (1) 1Gb 366i Ethernet Adapter 4 Ports
Power supply type (1) 460 W Common Slot Gold Hot Plug
Storage controller (1) Dynamic Smart Array B320i/512MB FBWC
Optical drive type 9.5mm SATA DVD-RW JackBlack
Form factor (fully configured) Rack (1U)
Warranty - year(s) (parts/labor/onsite) 3/1/1

You will need to purchase the SATA disks and extra RAM.

The RAID array controller supports ESXi 5.1 with the custom HP ESXi image: You get the Flash backed write cache on it which helps no end with performance.

I've not personally played with a DL360 GEN 8 but I have used the G6 and G7 ranges quite extensively for ESXi platforms and they have never let me down.
Click to expand...

Cool.

Isnt E5-2420 slower than Intel Xeon E3-1290v2?

What is labor & onsite Warranty? Does that mean someone will put server in rack case for us?
 
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I don't get who is buying SuperMicro servers. The most important aspect of a server for a business is the support. I guess if you are buying SuperMicro servers from some reseller that also provides 24x7 support, then sure, but again, why? HP/Dell/IBM have refined their support model down to a pretty fine art, and it's not like SuperMicro is cheap!? I just don't get it.

To answer the original question: if it is for work, and downtime matters, do not buy a white box; always go for a supported solution.
 
rotor said:
I don't get who is buying SuperMicro servers. The most important aspect of a server for a business is the support. I guess if you are buying SuperMicro servers from some reseller that also provides 24x7 support, then sure, but again, why? HP/Dell/IBM have refined their support model down to a pretty fine art, and it's not like SuperMicro is cheap!? I just don't get it.

To answer the original question: if it is for work, and downtime matters, do not buy a white box; always go for a supported solution.
Click to expand...

The UK and US are not the only markets and if I can build a Supermicro server for half the price of a HP offering and money is important (small business / startup) and who has access to an IT person and can live without a server but use a backup PC for a few days then 50% cost saving can be spent elsewhere.

THere is a place for them but where I am, the distributors handle the RMA so I don't have to deal with Supermicro direct.

Now just don't get me started on Norco :mad:.

RB
 
Ice_Black said:
Cool.

Isnt E5-2420 slower than Intel Xeon E3-1290v2?

What is labor & onsite Warranty? Does that mean someone will put server in rack case for us?
Click to expand...

What that means is that if something goes wrong under warranty an engineer will come with the part (or collect the part from your site if it is sent separately) and fix it for you. You do nothing except log the call.
 
Ice_Black said:
Is that true, HP hot swap smart drives - it has to be HP HDD model? I can't use any other HD like WD?
Click to expand...

HP (and the other vendors like IBM, Dell etc) warranty and support products bought from them. You can buy and use third party parts (non-HP compatible ram, hard drives etc) but they will not be warrantied or supported by HP and may even invalidate the warranty on your unit (i.e. opening the unit to install thrid party ram). In some countries there is more leeway from the companies but it is best to check.

Put it this way... If I bought a car from you and changed the seats to racing seats from another company and one broke, would you expect me to come back to you for a replacement ?.

This is why the items like hard drives etc from the big players are usually much more expensive. You are paying for the item, the warranty and support.

RB
 
Try lots of resellers, ask them all for quotes on that exact spec or equivalent and make them aware that they're competing against each other. You'll find one that will do a deal.

That price looks like full list price, which no-one in their right mind would pay.
 
covenantuk said:
Try lots of resellers, ask them all for quotes on that exact spec or equivalent and make them aware that they're competing against each other. You'll find one that will do a deal.

That price looks like full list price, which no-one in their right mind would pay.
Click to expand...

Can you list a few example resellers please.

Thanks
 
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