This Business and Moment...

malachi said:
Well you never improve if you don't step out your comfort zone into the unknown. I have done that a few times :)
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I'm in comfort job for life ATM. But the money's just alright and it's very obvious now there's no hope of progression. Im looking to move on now.

Last time I did it, I had a few false starts that didn't work out and took a dip in money before got back on track.

Other option is to stay where I am and start something on the side.
 
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Is there a thread on the 4 day working week anywhere?

Curious to hear how people feel about it. A couple of my friends are working in a place where they are following the 100-80-100 model for about 4 months now and they're loving it.

But for larger more established companies I wonder if it can actually work as the shift in planning and resourcing is significant as well as how to manage customers and stakeholders who aren't following that model.
 
Did it for a small business but ended up being asked for extra hours so often I went back to 5 days.

Depends on the person though. We have a good few part timers which is kinda similar. Some though are terrible organisers and everything takes very much longer due them being out by so much and not being organised. For example they will insist on phone or in person conversations, meetings where a email or online chat would get it done in a fraction of the time.
 
I'd be heavily in support of a condensed 4 day working week, had a few people at my old place doing it due to flexible working arrangements. I can see the benefits, but it did become a problem when you'd have a fire that needed fighting and Person X didn't work on Fridays. I'm not sure that it lends itself well to a finance environment.

For the last few years I've effectively managed my own time, there is a job that needs doing and you put the hours in to get that job done, but if I want to take a 2 hour lunch or a Friday affternoon off I'll just block out my calendar and do it. Realise that is hard to scale to the wider organisation and more junior employees but that is the level of trust I expect from a business and the same level of trust I give to the team below me.
 
Our place is really bad at providing cover for different peoples roles. Often only one person can do a certain job. If they are out no one can do it.
 
Personally I would like to do a 4 day working week but I'm sceptical as to the benefits in certain organisations/industries. The problem is when you don't have working days synced with people you need to interact with; the reason mon-fri works is because the vast majority of office jobs worldwide are based around that. People expect action on those days and not on weekends. If you just decided OK, we are not working on day X then it could create problems for others that are working on those days.

You also need to look at the hours involved, you've got a couple of options:
  • 100:80:100 approach, the issue here is that some people are working flat out on 100:100:100. If you attempt tot shift to 100:80:100 what you get in reality might be e.g. 100:90:95 i.e. they feel really pressured so end up working more than 80% of their hours to try and maintain productivity, but they still run out of time to do everything even at 90% and produce less than they used to. Certainly the job I had a couple of years ago, this would have been a nightmare, even taking holidays was extremely stressful due to the backlog of work that would build up. Although if everyone was off on the same day, this would alieviate things a bit as you'd have less work generated for you. edit: thinking about it, I would favour 100:80:100 in conjunction with a reduction in holiday allowance (as people should need less time off), i.e. put it at the base 20 days a year but you get an extra 50 days off due to 4 day week.
  • Longer hours e.g. 4 days of 10 hour shifts. This is more efficient in some ways because you get rid of travel time etc on one day but it may be disruptive in other areas like can you get childcare to cover the extended hours, does it it impact your home life if you are working later into the evenings etc
 
I have a couple of friends in different industries doing it. One is software, one is logistics. The logistics is condensed hours, and shifts, i.e. there is someone in every day of the week, and you move which day you have off accordingly. Clearly everyone wanted to go for friday or monday, though wednesday seemed popular. So that's a bit of a hassle, an it's also a 40hr week in 4 days which does make it relatively long days (for some people). The other is 100-80-100 rule. So not a 40hr week or 37.5hr week. literally 9-5 for 4 days, the caveat being that productivity needs to remain the same.

In the civil engineering/infrastructure world we're so backward that that wouldn't work, we're barely coping with innovation / digital tools as it is, let along HR matters such as this! :D Furthermore, it would delay work, and especially if the supply chain can't fulfil the requirements.

I guess the alternative to this is to extend the statutory holiday entitlement so people have more time off.

Personally I'd love it, but I can't see it working for me or at least in my industry for the moment - society, business and so on is so tailored around the 9-5 (ish) world for 5+ days a week it would take a massive societal behavioural shift to enable it. Can it be done? Yes, but it will require significant effort.

Since WFH is not going to be a long term thing for the majority of industries it may well cause a bit of a shift in the sectors - some sectors can do 4 days some can't etc... but then I guess that gives you choices to change sectors and roles if that's the lifestyle you want.
 
Kreeeee said:
I work 3 days a week, and my partner works a compressed 4 days a week for 100% pay. Happy to discuss it if you want.
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Oh it's not for me directly, I just see a big drive for it across some of the businesses I work with (ans my network on LI), just interested in how it can work across multiple sectors / industries. Personally I'd be happy to work 4 days for less pay, as it would be nice to have more personal time, not even necessarily just for family, but for personal hobbies etc...

I was curious to see how many businesses were exploring it and what strategies they're thinking of applying. I think personally this is going to take decades as society has been set up for such a long time in a particular way. I think the push for better work/life balance is really starting to gain some some of traction in people's minds. In Europe working time does seem to be more favourable towards the quality of life side of things (I'm generalising of course). the other extreme is the USA which seems to be "work first, life second" - but again, that's starting to shift a little, but they're even further behind. My friends in Asia find it a really odd concept! It's a shame as a race we've lost our values of being people / family oriented.
 
Freefaller said:
The point of 100-80-100 is same pay, and only need to work 80% of the time, provided they deliver 100% of the agreed productivity
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That might not be the same for people who are paid a day rate.

Eg. if I invoice for £400/day, 5 days a week - that's 20 x £400 = £8,000. If it's only 4 days a week with no rate increase, then it's 16 x £400 = £6,400.

Appreciate that comes across as a bit first world problems (and I'm not stating that that is my day rate above), but it results in a pay cut for contractors.
 
Maccy said:
That might not be the same for people who are paid a day rate.

Eg. if I invoice for £400/day, 5 days a week - that's 20 x £400 = £8,000. If it's only 4 days a week with no rate increase, then it's 16 x £400 = £6,400.

Appreciate that comes across as a bit first world problems (and I'm not stating that that is my day rate above), but it results in a pay cut for contractors.
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Of course - this is why the discussion is interesting as it's clear it can't work for everyone. Also it's whether or not you value the time off more than the salary, I think personally I would - but clearly everyone is different and as you've demonstrated, different contracts and employment conditions will cause it not to be unilaterally rolled out. i think how society is set up at the moment it's just too much of a paradigm shift... but It's great to see that the status quo is being challenged.
 
Freefaller said:
Of course - this is why the discussion is interesting as it's clear it can't work for everyone. Also it's whether or not you value the time off more than the salary, I think personally I would - but clearly everyone is different and as you've demonstrated, different contracts and employment conditions will cause it not to be unilaterally rolled out. i think how society is set up at the moment it's just too much of a paradigm shift... but It's great to see that the status quo is being challenged.
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Yup I agree it's potentially a move in the right direction, but I feel it needs to be adopted by all. I'm not sure what I'd do with a Friday off but none of my family/friends do!
 
Maccy said:
Yup I agree it's potentially a move in the right direction, but I feel it needs to be adopted by all. I'm not sure what I'd do with a Friday off but none of my family/friends do!
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I was thinking about this - I wondered taking the wednesday off would be more beneficial. 2 days on, 1 day off, 2 days on,2 days off. Quite a nice pattern.

But you're right, if it's fragmented it just causes more problems - especially if not everyone is able to work the same way.
 
Maccy said:
That might not be the same for people who are paid a day rate.

Eg. if I invoice for £400/day, 5 days a week - that's 20 x £400 = £8,000. If it's only 4 days a week with no rate increase, then it's 16 x £400 = £6,400.

Appreciate that comes across as a bit first world problems (and I'm not stating that that is my day rate above), but it results in a pay cut for contractors.
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Yes, no-one's going to pay a contractor to not work :P My new job will see me contracted out to customers at day rates....so zero chance of a 100:80:100 arrangement.

Frankly, I would be much more likely to just take several weeks extra holiday, unpaid.
 
Freefaller said:
Personally I'd be happy to work 4 days for less pay
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That would scare me, because subconsciously there would be be an expectation that I should be delivering the same as people who are working 5 days a week (and getting paid more than me). In some jobs, you'd end up doing nearly as much work for less money, although I appreciate it might be different in construction. The analogy I always fall back on is the coffee shop barista; if they have a day off work, they don't come back to a queue of people out the door and a backlog of drinks to make. But in IT, it sometimes feels like that.

Where I used to work, there was a lady who worked 3.5 days a week (and was paid as such). I was part of the leadership team that met to calibrate performance reviews and it was concerning that some felt she should not be considered "successful" in terms of performance rating. In my mind, if she delivered 70% or more of what a successful person working 5 days a week did, then she should also be considered successful or higher (that's not to say if she was rubbish she should get a free pass of course).

To be honest, in the past I've actually wanted to work more hours for more pay, e.g. go from 35hrs to 40hrs because I had more than enough work to fill that time. Essentially just get paid for some of the extra hours I was doing anyway.
 
The pension contribution to lower taxable income is an interesting one, and something I am looking at at the moment with a view of our QOL isn't going to be massively improved by any future wage rises to an extent so it may be worth increasing pension% contribution as they take effect in order to keep taxable income the same but more importantly, accelerate the build up of the pension pot / maximise the impact of compound interest. Hitting 33 next year and do often look at the balance between pursuing early retirement vs having more disposable income in the present with raising kids etc.
 
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