This Business and Moment...

[dowie]

It's very much established that I am senior to all the others in my department except for our FD. I am in charge when the FD is away, all the team come to me for advice even when he's in, I am part of the head of department meetings, etc. etc.

Normally it's reflected in pay. The more junior employee has a fraction of my responsibility. They're very much a 9-5 sort of worker, not necessarily career oriented. I just can't seem to explain the differential.

You're not answering the question though, you're saying it's very much established and that might well be the case within your department but what is the actual situation on paper - do you have different job titles or not?

Are you actually a "manager" on paper or are you someone with the same job title but assuming some responsibilities?

Not really a title, no - I don't have assistant in front of my title like the others, but there's no standard hierarchy that shows I am senior, even though it is implied.

Edit - you've clarified what I was getting at in your next post there.

You need to make this stuff official or you're just going to carry on being taken for a ride. How long have you had some leadership responsibilities without a title/new pay bracket to go with it?

I'd suggest that your issue with this other guy getting a larger pay rise is likely what I pointed out previously (I don't need to know much about your org to suggest this as it's standard HR practice across many):

Within the same pay bracket - new (inexperienced at that level) hires typically come in at the lower third of the range, you as an experienced hire are probably in the top third of the range and your pay rises (given you're topping out the range) are likely going to be less than the new hire who they perhaps want to move up to the middle of the range.

If I were you I'd arrange a meeting with your management, lay out what you're currently contributing, and push for a promotion/formal recognition of your current job.

 

[wingman]

do you have different job titles or not?

Yeah, different job titles

Are you actually a "manager" on paper or are you someone with the same job title but assuming some responsibilities?

I manage a team of three full time, and the rest of the team when the FD is away. Nobody else on the team manages anyone else.

How long have you had some leadership responsibilities without a title/new pay bracket to go with it?

8 years in role, always pseudo management. 3 years actual management of three people, as above, but continue to be the defacto manager of the team.

Within the same pay bracket - new (inexperienced at that level) hires typically come in at the lower third of the range

Ah, should've made this clear. The other colleague started the same month as me.

If I were you I'd arrange a meeting with your management, lay out what you're currently contributing, and push for a promotion.

Agreed - do I discuss the disparity, or not bring that up? I feel without that claim I'm not going to get anywhere.

In my heart I feel it's new job time, too. I'm just feeling aggrieved right now, and want to discuss it with management.

 

[jon86]

Agreed - do I discuss the disparity, or not bring that up? I feel without that claim I'm not going to get anywhere.

In my heart I feel it's new job time, too. I'm just feeling aggrieved right now, and want to discuss it with management.

Rightly or wrongly, I have been burned in the past by my management and HR for bringing up a colleague's pay, even though it was with my colleague's permission. I just try to focus on what *I* can attain myself. If *I* can get a better offer elsewhere, I'll use that as leverage as that's my own personal circumstances, but I won't ever bring up anyone else's compensation as a talking point.

 

[LuckyBenski]

Rightly or wrongly, I have been burned in the past by my management and HR for bringing up a colleague's pay, even though it was with my colleague's permission. I just try to focus on what *I* can attain myself. If *I* can get a better offer elsewhere, I'll use that as leverage as that's my own personal circumstances, but I won't ever bring up anyone else's compensation as a talking point.

It's similarly been not very useful when I've used colleagues' salary in negotiations. Companies merged and we were at the pub, 2 from my side and 2 from the merged side. We all discussed numbers and there was a big disparity. When I eventually discussed that while negotiating a promotion it was more or less dismissed as nonsense - obviously I have no way of knowing who is lying. It's HR's word against my colleagues. Just not a fruitful avenue to raise for discussion.

 

[dowie]

Ah, should've made this clear. The other colleague started the same month as me.

The same issue can still apply there if HR sees you as being in the same essential pay bracket (regardless of responsibilities), guy in the lower third, is hired at a lower rate and getting higher rises vs the guy at the top of the bracket. It's still likely to come down to the title/grade etc.. that's important and that's still not quite clear, how much your official title/grade differs from his.

Agreed - do I discuss the disparity, or not bring that up? I feel without that claim I'm not going to get anywhere.

In my heart I feel it's new job time, too. I'm just feeling aggrieved right now, and want to discuss it with management.

You mentioned different titles but in one post you're basically just mentioning that you don't have 'assistant' in your title like the others do. If you're leading a small team + are essentially the deputy manager/deputy department head for the rest of the department then I think a discussion around job title and place in the org chart perhaps is necessary.

Like are you actually "Manager [whatever team]" or are you [some job] say (senior) auditor or whatever and he's assistant auditor and you lead the three ppl you mentioned? Are you just leading them day to day or do you have responsibility for their pay rises and their performance reviews? If you're kind of appointed to a semi-official team lead type role but your title is still [some job] or senior [some job] then that may be part of the issue.

I used to think posturing about titles and org charts was silly but in some cases, in particular when it impacts either compensation or the ability to get things done then it is important.

If the disparity has been shared with you by your colleague in confidence then try to avoid indicating that they specifically told you if you do bring it up, after all, they did you a favour here by sharing that information hopefully there are others so it isn't obvious if you make a more general claim re: what you're being paid vs what some others are and what you think you're worth via trying to mark to market by looking at examples of similar roles elsewhere and comparing your responsibilities. It's worth having a frank discussion about it, make sure you put emphasis all the extra stuff you contribute and your desire for this to be reflected more formally and for your pay issue to be corrected too.

 

[Martynt74]

Seems i'm positioning myself nicely as an "Internal Adaptive Planning Superuser". Our company is heavily decentralised and split into a number of operating groups, which operate 95% independently of each other, except we all submit date up the chain in the same way.

My group implemented Adaptive prior to my arrival, and i've since done various demos to other operating groups on our system, and then historically they go to our external consultants/Adaptive direct for their implementation and i don't hear anything about it.
However following a bit of a restructure a group we've moved closer to have also expressed an interest and rather than them pay ~$50k implementation costs i've suggested rolling them into our Cloud Instance and taking on the majority of setup for their individual companies/training.

Saves them a chunk of cash, brings in revenue for my operating group and helps get my name out. Handy given the entire group is around $35bn in Revenue. Have also been speaking to someone at Adaptive about trying to setup standardised pricing for all companies within the larger company, as at the moment all negotiations are separate and we don't really get the benefit of our size. Should also add a benefit of having an internal user group to discuss best practice.

 

[Macky]

Torn now.. I applied for a senior role, which is a step up from my current position. For the last few months I've been led to believe I have been successful in securing the senior role from various conversations with their hiring team. Cue today where they inform me they haven't been able to authorise funding for the senior role as I haven't got enough experience but they do want to take me on at the same level I'm at now.

The pay is still better, but 4k rather than 14k. I'm frustrated that it's taken this long for them to decide I haven't got enough experience. I don't know if it's worth the move now. I could probably get to senior at my current employer within six months - although not sure what the salary is for that.

Tldr: I've been messed about basically but the offer is still somewhat appealing.

 

[Felon]

Cue today where they inform me they haven't been able to authorise funding for the senior role as I haven't got enough experience but they do want to take me on at the same level I'm at now.

My personal thoughts would be not to do it, if they're asking you to do a more senior role but at the same time their excuse to not pay the fair rate is "you don't have enough experience" but they want you to do it anyway - sounds like they're trying to mug you off.

I've actually been in a similar position before a long time ago, I demanded that they put in writing that if I do the job for the "cheap" rate for 6 months to a satisfactory level, after 6 months they'd increase the rate to what I was asking, which they did and it worked out ok.

Not sure if that helps,

 

[LuckyBenski]

Torn now.. I applied for a senior role, which is a step up from my current position. For the last few months I've been led to believe I have been successful in securing the senior role from various conversations with their hiring team. Cue today where they inform me they haven't been able to authorise funding for the senior role as I haven't got enough experience but they do want to take me on at the same level I'm at now.

The pay is still better, but 4k rather than 14k. I'm frustrated that it's taken this long for them to decide I haven't got enough experience. I don't know if it's worth the move now. I could probably get to senior at my current employer within six months - although not sure what the salary is for that.

Tldr: I've been messed about basically but the offer is still somewhat appealing.

I had more or less this. Wanted 11-21k payrise to move into managing a lab from being a developer, they offered 6k.

4 months in I'm still sour about it - ultimately they've blown it with me and I'm giving them my core hours and that's it. Been at the company 6 years and very, very loyal but now I just don't care for their BS.

Edit: I should elaborate that it's not directly about the cash. I don't need more cash per se, but I didn't want to give up extra time and energy which I need for my personal life which is suffering. The cash would have been a trade-off so I can pay contractors instead of doing my own DIY, etc etc. They refused to negotiate hours, part time e.g. 4 days a week, nothing. "Just smile and nod but don't budge."

 

[wingman]

The same issue can still apply there if HR sees you as being in the same essential pay bracket (regardless of responsibilities), guy in the lower third, is hired at a lower rate and getting higher rises vs the guy at the top of the bracket. It's still likely to come down to the title/grade etc.. that's important and that's still not quite clear, how much your official title/grade differs from his.



You mentioned different titles but in one post you're basically just mentioning that you don't have 'assistant' in your title like the others do. If you're leading a small team + are essentially the deputy manager/deputy department head for the rest of the department then I think a discussion around job title and place in the org chart perhaps is necessary.

Like are you actually "Manager [whatever team]" or are you [some job] say (senior) auditor or whatever and he's assistant auditor and you lead the three ppl you mentioned? Are you just leading them day to day or do you have responsibility for their pay rises and their performance reviews? If you're kind of appointed to a semi-official team lead type role but your title is still [some job] or senior [some job] then that may be part of the issue.

I used to think posturing about titles and org charts was silly but in some cases, in particular when it impacts either compensation or the ability to get things done then it is important.

If the disparity has been shared with you by your colleague in confidence then try to avoid indicating that they specifically told you if you do bring it up, after all, they did you a favour here by sharing that information hopefully there are others so it isn't obvious if you make a more general claim re: what you're being paid vs what some others are and what you think you're worth via trying to mark to market by looking at examples of similar roles elsewhere and comparing your responsibilities. It's worth having a frank discussion about it, make sure you put emphasis all the extra stuff you contribute and your desire for this to be reflected more formally and for your pay issue to be corrected too.

Thanks Dowie, lots to chew on here and I'm going to have a think what you've wrote, appreciate the time to write it up.

 

[Macky]

My personal thoughts would be not to do it, if they're asking you to do a more senior role but at the same time their excuse to not pay the fair rate is "you don't have enough experience" but they want you to do it anyway - sounds like they're trying to mug you off.

I've actually been in a similar position before a long time ago, I demanded that they put in writing that if I do the job for the "cheap" rate for 6 months to a satisfactory level, after 6 months they'd increase the rate to what I was asking, which they did and it worked out ok.

Not sure if that helps,

Cheers, useful to hear about your experience. Probably important to note that they are willing to take on the "burden" of my remaining apprenticeship (two more years of an MSc). As part of this they are required to allow me to have 20% of my hours to do apprenticeship related activities. I just wouldn't want any potential promotion to senior to be paused until completion of the apprenticeship.

I'll get the offer through and see how attractive it is as a whole. I'm also speaking with my prospective manager on Friday so see what they have to say.

 

[NickK]

Torn now.. I applied for a senior role, which is a step up from my current position. For the last few months I've been led to believe I have been successful in securing the senior role from various conversations with their hiring team. Cue today where they inform me they haven't been able to authorise funding for the senior role as I haven't got enough experience but they do want to take me on at the same level I'm at now.

The pay is still better, but 4k rather than 14k. I'm frustrated that it's taken this long for them to decide I haven't got enough experience. I don't know if it's worth the move now. I could probably get to senior at my current employer within six months - although not sure what the salary is for that.

Tldr: I've been messed about basically but the offer is still somewhat appealing.

So typically they have funding before they look or advise. Sounds a little messed up you applied for a job that never existed. The “as you don’t have enough experience” is bull .. basically they know they can get you todo the work for the same money you’re in now.

 

[Felon]

Cheers, useful to hear about your experience. Probably important to note that they are willing to take on the "burden" of my remaining apprenticeship (two more years of an MSc). As part of this they are required to allow me to have 20% of my hours to do apprenticeship related activities. I just wouldn't want any potential promotion to senior to be paused until completion of the apprenticeship.

I'll get the offer through and see how attractive it is as a whole. I'm also speaking with my prospective manager on Friday so see what they have to say.

Yeah, learning to negotiate is a pro skill and it takes a long time to learn,

Sometimes it might be worth actually taking a lower rate - if you're going to be able to bridge a big skills gap, or gain exposure to something which is really neat and will pay off later, but if you do that - I'd say try to engineer the situation in your favour, don't just take whats on offer at the first hurdle.

But I think you get that anyway

 

[HangTime]

Just been contacted by my manager in the middle of my holiday to ask if I can join a planning call for a workshop taking place the day after I get back from holiday.

Part of me thinks it's unreasonable to contact an employee whilst on leave expecting them to join a call.
Another part of me acknowledges I'm the person running the workshop and there's literally no preparation time between my holiday and the workshop.

I've agreed to do the call, but I've made it clear that I don't expect this to be the norm.

To me the issue seems to be that timing of the workshop - if it is going to take more than 1 day to prepare for, then it should've been scheduled for later (unless it was booked long in advance, as I know it can be difficult rescheduling workshops with lots of attendees).
Looking at it objectively, providing you aren't impacted too much by the disruption and can get the time back, it's probably not a bad thing from a pure work perspective to go in to the workshop on a new project well prepared.

As for the generic subject, I was called on my personal number when on paternity leave about some drama that someone wanted my input on because it was quite a big planning shake-up impacting my team, literally took the call at the hospital. I was a bit annoyed to be honest, they didn't seem to pickup on me saying "look I'm literally at the hospital and my wife's about to give birth, I don't have access to any work stuff even if I had time to" and continued on explaining the situation and wanting my advice. It was quite a toxic work-heavy programme at times.

 

[HangTime]

Torn now.. I applied for a senior role, which is a step up from my current position. For the last few months I've been led to believe I have been successful in securing the senior role from various conversations with their hiring team. Cue today where they inform me they haven't been able to authorise funding for the senior role as I haven't got enough experience but they do want to take me on at the same level I'm at now.

The pay is still better, but 4k rather than 14k. I'm frustrated that it's taken this long for them to decide I haven't got enough experience. I don't know if it's worth the move now. I could probably get to senior at my current employer within six months - although not sure what the salary is for that.

Tldr: I've been messed about basically but the offer is still somewhat appealing.

I'd give it a miss, doesn't sound like a great place to work if they are recruiting roles without funding in place, then it takes them months after interviewing to decide you don't have enough experience afterall. Think ahead to what would happen if you were to take the job, what will your progression route be like at that employer? Will they pull promised promotions from under your nose because they can't get funding?

This is what I hate, my market rate is anywhere from £5k through £12k more than I'm on now, and that's being reasonable/what agencies are agreeing with.

Focus on this, not what your colleague is getting. Present the case as to why you need your additional responsibilities recognised and that you expect to be moved closer to market rates. Basically don't say "Hey, Iceman got a bigger raise than me, you need to sort me out". You need to say "Look, I'm Maverick, this is my justification for why I need to be moved onto market rates of £x, and I'd like to agree a plan of what we need to do to achieve that."

The fact your colleague got a bigger pay rise isn't directly relevant, because they are still earning less than you. It could be that both of you are underpaid but they have an automated system that is considering them as more underpaid than you (rightly or wrongly). I've seen systems like this in the past that basically compare a given role against a benchmark and then give a bigger/smaller proposed salary change as a result. Although that system was too narrow, even where it identified people as underpaid the uplift they got above 'default' wasn't big enough, like it would propose 3% instead of 2% or whatever which isn't much good if you're underpaid by 20%.

 

[ivrytwr3]

As for the generic subject, I was called on my personal number when on paternity leave about some drama that someone wanted my input on because it was quite a big planning shake-up impacting my team, literally took the call at the hospital. I was a bit annoyed to be honest, they didn't seem to pickup on me saying "look I'm literally at the hospital and my wife's about to give birth, I don't have access to any work stuff even if I had time to" and continued on explaining the situation and wanting my advice. It was quite a toxic work-heavy programme at times.

I was part of an investigation team and one of the team had submitted a warrant to a judge, but had neglected to sign it - they too were in the hospital with his wife about to give birth. I ended up going to the hospital and having a nurse bring him out to sign the warrant.

Looking back now (i was much younger and naive) i would have told my boss that if they wanted to interrupt such an important occasion, they can go themselves. Still makes me cringe to this day.

 

[NickK]

Well I've escalated the financial issues up the chain.. I'll let the senior directors, deputy-CTO, CIO and CFO fight that out now they're back from vacation. Allows me to turn my attention to solving the other issues - next one the fact that they want to go product but the programme office is bring dragged with finger nails clawing into the modern world..

 

[Noxia]

I am doing CISSP next to try and get a bit more specialised in sec aspects, will do CEH after just because I think it will be fun and I've enjoyed doing the ImmersiveLabs stuff, messing with linux and other tools. No real career goals in mind, just making the most of the generous cost free training.

It's a bit sad others don't try better themselves considering but then a lot of mine is making up for lost time due to very late ADHD diagnosis and life changing meds.

 

[NickK]

I've come to the conclusion that there's no leadership, so the entire place is akin to the civil service but below the civil service as there's no process either. There's a reason I never seek work in the public sector - I'm not compatible with the public sector culture or vice-versa.

Think it's time to look for a new role to stop my skills from atrophying..

 

[jon86]

I've come to the conclusion that there's no leadership, so the entire place is akin to the civil service but below the civil service as there's no process either. There's a reason I never seek work in the public sector - I'm not compatible with the public sector culture or vice-versa.

Think it's time to look for a new role to stop my skills from atrophying..

What do you mean by "there's no leadership"? Are you referring to direction for where to take the company/products, or are you more referring to accountability and ownership?