Time for fuel cell / hydrogen car?

[Terminal_Boy]

The difference is ICE drivers don't have a petrol station at home or work.

That’s not entirely correct.

If I had 3 x 20 litre Jerrycans of diesel in my shed (I only have one…), I would have the equivalent of a petrol station and the most powerful EV charger known to man at home as I could bring my Duster up to 100% of range from any fuel state in under 10 minutes.

 

[adam cool dude]

That’s not entirely correct.

If I had 3 x 20 litre Jerrycans of diesel in my shed (I only have one…), I would have the equivalent of a petrol station and the most powerful EV charger known to man at home as I could bring my Duster up to 100% of range from any fuel state in under 10 minutes.

Neither is the bit about petrol station at work. What if your place of work is at a fuel station or in my case a logistics hub.

 

[jpaul]

seems like paris has a filling station 18e / kg so not cheap, and toyota providing 500 mirais + 2000ev for the olympics

500 fuel cell Toyota Mirai for the Olympic and Paralympic

Zero-emission fleet of hydrogen-powered Toyota Mirai will operate throughout Paris 2024Toyota has a shared objective with Paris 2024 to reduce carbon emissions of the games by -50% compared to previous games*, enabled by a fleet of 100% electrified passenger cars

newsroom.toyota.eu

 

[Jonnycoupe]

That’s not entirely correct.

If I had 3 x 20 litre Jerrycans of diesel in my shed (I only have one…), I would have the equivalent of a petrol station and the most powerful EV charger known to man at home as I could bring my Duster up to 100% of range from any fuel state in under 10 minutes.

Are they metal? I think 60 Is about the max you can legally have.

How do you fill them up?…

What an utterly daft argument.

 

[SDK^]

That’s not entirely correct.

If I had 3 x 20 litre Jerrycans of diesel in my shed (I only have one…), I would have the equivalent of a petrol station and the most powerful EV charger known to man at home as I could bring my Duster up to 100% of range from any fuel state in under 10 minutes.

What happens when those Jerrycans are used and empty? Where do you go to fill them up - Your outside home hosepipe ?

 

[bigmike20vt]

What happens when those Jerrycans are used and empty? Where do you go to fill them up - Your outside home hosepipe ?

just buy a self charging hybrid............ they charge themselves then right? Not sure how it works.... Must be moon juice, fairy wing dust and unicorn spit.



Many years ago Tata were working on a compressed air car...... may as well add that to the mix imo it is as likely to be powering cars as hydrogen is in significant numbers in the next 5 years at least.
Note not trying to be mean.... and if people really want to buy a hydrogen car then good on you. I do actually genuinely believe in putting your money where your mouth is.... i did with an EV despite many people still telling me i am mad and they dont work.

but i genuinely do not see how the huge issues with hydrogen can be gotten around... not only the refueling limitations but the fact that the grid just isnt clean enough..... whcih is why i only said 5 years. i think it will be longer but maybe i will be wrong and this country will pull their finger out and we will have so much clean renewable electricity going spare that an over abundance of green H2 will be a thing and we will need to burn it in cars just to get rid of it. I truly hope it happens.

but using brown or grey H2 in cars would be irresponsible....... i am not sure but possibly worse than just buying an efficient petrol car TBH.

 

[Ryan-3]

Synthetic fuel is a thing...

Even if we don't change across to hydrogen (which we can and should do for household gas and vehicles) we can still have ICE powered cars, rather than fuel cell or battery.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

but using brown or grey H2 in cars would be irresponsible....... i am not sure but possibly worse than just buying an efficient petrol car TBH.

It's worse, a lot worse.

Synthetic fuel is a thing...

Even if we don't change across to hydrogen (which we can and should do for household gas and vehicles) we can still have ICE powered cars, rather than fuel cell or battery.

The issue is that it doesn't solve the local emissions problem and the drive for zero emission is not just about total/global CO2. They'll be 'ULEZ'd' off the roads in the next 25 years or so even if it was economically viable to run a car on synthetic fuel. The only cars left would be exotics and I'm sure we can make an exception for them on Sundays

Personally, I'd prefer it if the aviation industry got first dibs on any synthetic/e fuels, followed by the shipping industry and the last place it ended up was in peoples cars. The main reason being is that there is no realistic prospect of a viable alternative coming online any time soon those two huge polluters.

 

[Ryan-3]

Personally, I'd prefer it if the aviation industry got first dibs on any synthetic/e fuels, followed by the shipping industry and the last place it ended up was in peoples cars. The main reason being is that there is no realistic prospect of a viable alternative coming online any time soon those two huge polluters.

If those two sectors (with trucks) ran on 100% synthetic fuel we would drop EVs and probably not bother with alternatives elsewhere for a good few decades.

It's annoying that the alternative sources were being explored in depth (including my own PhD) until very recently and then quite literally dropped entirely overnight.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

If those two sectors (with trucks) ran on 100% synthetic fuel we would drop EVs and probably not bother with alternatives elsewhere for a good few decades.

It's annoying that the alternative sources were being explored in depth (including my own PhD) until very recently and then quite literally dropped entirely overnight.

They haven’t been dropped, hundreds of millions are being poured into efuels/synthetic fuels.

The issue is they cost £lol/litre with no tax compared to about £0.75 for diesel/petrol and as little as 7p/kwh for electric. As I mentioned, they still don’t solve the local emissions issue.

You’ll find that the main issue people have with efuels, synthetic fuels and hydrogen is that they are always promoted as a stick to bash BEVs rather than having a good faith conversation about it.

The language in your post is a good example, why do you need to ‘drop’ EVs? They are going to be a thing regardless of what happens with anything else even if ICE cars are never phased out.

 

[Ryan-3]

They haven’t been dropped, hundreds of millions are being poured into efuels/synthetic fuels.

The issue is they cost £lol/litre with no tax compared to about £0.75 for diesel/petrol and as little as 7p/kwh for electric. As I mentioned, they still don’t solve the local emissions issue.

You’ll find that the main issue people have with efuels, synthetic fuels and hydrogen is that they are always promoted as a stick to bash BEVs rather than having a good faith conversation about it.

The language in your post is a good example, why do you need to ‘drop’ EVs? They are going to be a thing regardless of what happens with anything else even if ICE cars are never phased out.

I meant to say other alternatives sorry. You're right with synthetics being way overpriced right now, but once they're in volume it *should* become comparable.

Batteries aren't the future until the next generation of technology arrives. They can always have their place but if we got carbon neutral or even negative fuels into the mainstream then why would you do the extensive dirty mining needed to produce the batteries required?

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Cos its not dirty in the context of any other option really?

I meant to say other alternatives sorry. You're right with synthetics being way overpriced right now, but once they're in volume it *should* become comparable.

Batteries are the future until maybe the next generation of technology arrives.

EFA

The cost is from the energy use, you dont get volume of scale from that!

 

[Ryan-3]

Cos its not dirty in the context of any other option really?



EFA

The cost is from the energy use, you dont get volume of scale from that!

Energy consumption in the oil and gas sector is absolutely massive and continues to grow, and the end products are pretty cheap considering the refining process too.

We should probably stray back to the hydrogen topic though...

 

[Jonnycoupe]

But they need batteries too?

 

[m4rmite]

Synthetic fuel is a thing...

Even if we don't change across to hydrogen (which we can and should do for household gas and vehicles) we can still have ICE powered cars, rather than fuel cell or battery.

We can't as it stands.
The investment needed to replace pipework suitable for hydrogen would be off the scale.
There's so many cast iron risers/ manifolds and pipework at the consumer end it would never get replaced without costing a fortune.
Cast iron and hydrogen isn't a good mix as it will cause embrittlement , and leak through the porous metal.

But that doesn't stop certain gas network companies from getting funding from the government, with the "of course it will work" bravado.
Yet behind closed doors three network know it won't.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

For hydrogen to work as a gas network like we have now, almost everything will need to be replaced. That’s literally everything between your gas boiler/hob and the huge tanker terminal that ships in gas currently.

The reason for this is simple, it’s the first element on the periodic table, the molecules are much smaller and lighter than methane. So something which can contain methane, can’t necessarily contain hydrogen and not leak. To put it simply, the gas network isn’t built to the tolerance needed to contain it.

Everything will need to be replaced before it can be switched over.

The issue with leakage is that hydrogen is explosive in almost all concentrations in air. Methane isn’t and it’s explosive range is relatively narrow by comparison.

Every couple of months or so we see a story on the news along the lines of ‘house destroyed and X people killed / injured in gas explosion’. The risk of that happening with hydrogen is huge by comparison. Safety systems would need to be ramped up considerably to the point they will probably be prohibitively annoying and expensive.

I don’t really want methane piped into my house, not a chance in a month of Sundays would I sign up for hydrogen being pumped in.

 

[squerble]

Even if we don't change across to hydrogen (which we can and should do for household gas and vehicles) we can still have ICE powered cars, rather than fuel cell or battery.

Hydrogen is viable for neither of these applications. We absolutely should not change.

As a post above says, the entire pipe network, including the pipe that runs from your gas meter to the boiler (which is underneath the house in many, many cases) all need replacing at the same time. How on earth will that ever work? As for cars, again, nope. Too much faff, would represent 3x the energy usage of BEVs; it's an absolute no-go.

Your support for hydrogen to the homes and making synthetic fuels is the wrong standpoint - we absolutely need to stop burning stuff.

 

[jpaul]

as said - still got to store electricity for a non-windy day,for which hydrogen is a useful medium, and, would would maintain the rate of return from wind-farm, in days of excess production,
rather than giving the extra electricity away, or, in the case of eu N africa hydrogen (solar) investments, can't transport the electricity.

Maybe, all that hydrogen can usefully be used for other industrial processes though.

UK Hydrogen home use, obviously stigmatized (uk social media paranoia) from the redwood (was it?) trials.

 

[Hades]

Edit: Wrong thread

 

[SkodaMart]

The west has a totally two tier system going on with personal transport, I can still buy a sports car with a ridiculously large internal combustion engine if I have the available funds, outrageous power, acceleration and top speeds.
None of this is needed, it is all totally excessive. The majority of cars on the road today are heavy ugly SUVs, non of this is required, it is totally excessive.
EVs are an utter nonsense, they are far less ‘green’ even than there IC alternatives.
The solution exists here, and now. It’s cheap, affordable available and keeps the car industry rolling.
We need to end ridiculous over weight over priced over powered cars now.
Move over to small capacity petrol powered vehicles, utilising the best of super economical technology hybrids and plug in hybrids included.
HGVs can continue using diesel with adblue and DPF filters.
Electrification of railway lines, move heavy goods back there.
Small capacity motorcycles too.
This net zero lie & nonsense should be abandoned and we should make the most of the technology that exists right here and now.
Our love affair for high performance needs to end, we need to embrace high efficiency instead.
The British speed limit is 70mph
My 44bhp fiesta 950 would achieve that back in 1980.