Tired of failure

daz.wallace · 5 Mar 2003 at 19:07

I am sorry, but you sound to me like a glory hunter, I know I know nothing about you and you may have supported them since you could hold a rattle (apologies if you have

) but to me you dont sound like a true supporter.

What did you used to think before you won that first elusive title? Was it 26/27 years since you had won it previously? Did you get sick of not winning anything then?

As has been said previously, Man Utd Do Not have the god given right to win a piece of silverware every year, and just becasuse you dont it doesn't mean that your team is falling apart or your manager has lost the plot :eek:

You may still win the CL or the league (if Arsenal throw it away) so all is not lost yet. What you have to watch out for is a decline like Liverpool's after the 80's :eek:

The main thing is how quickly you bounce back

Storm · 5 Mar 2003 at 23:03

Originally posted by Disco_Dave
After watching the Worthington cup final defeat, I finally lost faith in Sir Alex Ferguson. I, like many fans was pinning hope on the Worthington cup as being the saviour to our season. Now that it has gone, what hope do we have?

huh!!!! ???? HUH!!!! ?????

Pinning our hopes on the Worthy Cup. Its hardly like were
bottom of the league and out of the CL is it.

8 years of not bothering with the mickey mouse cup and then
we get near the final and some supporters think its the be all
and end all.

Sure I'd have liked to see United win the Worthy Cup and
believe if Dudek hadn't played out of his skin then we would
have, but if we'd have won it, its hardly like a million fans would
have come out on the streets of Manchester to welcome the
team home now is it. The fans would have been, right, now thats
won, lets concentrate on the important things, ie the Premiership
and the CL.

United just haven't been consistent enough this season in the
league and I think ultimately that'll cost the team. Considering
the start United had again, and the injuries I think they've done
well. If Arsenal lose one game (thats not the United one) then
if United win all their final games they win the title. Now thats
hardly a reason to sack the manager and half the team is it.

Also I think United have a very good chance of winning the
CL. For some reason this season, they are very very consistant
in the CL and not the Premiership. Sure they'll prob lose the
last two CL games but they'll field very different teams now
they qualified.

The only real threats I see in the CL are from AC Milan, Real
and Arsenal. Looking at their groups both Arsenal and Real
could be knocked out in the next two games so I can't see
any reason United couldn't go all the way.

Why would you sack the manager who has made United great
again ? Fergie still has the passion to go on and so he should.

I do agree some new blood is needed next season but I think
Giggs should stay and its Beckham I'd ship out. All this talk about
Giggs but he's got, I believe, twice as mainy goals as Beckham
this season.

Beckham would sell for a fortune, which could get a lot of players,
or even just Figo or Ronaldo

I'd leave the defence pretty much the same as it is, maybe Escude could come in. United do have
the best defence in the league you know.

hethers · 6 Mar 2003 at 00:28

Originally posted by tom_w
i can see why all you man utd fans are so upset

it's been what, a whole season and a half since you last won the premiership? must be awful, good to see you stick with your team through these terrible times though!

Errrrr not ALL are upset. I am disappointed but not upset for I have seen this all before with many teams, including Utd. and OUR TIME WILL COME AGAIN!

And when it does BEWARE

[ASSE]Hinchy · 6 Mar 2003 at 00:34

Re: Re: Tired of failure

Originally posted by Storm
maybe Escude could come in. United do have
the best defence in the league you know.

I heard that Kevin Keegan was ready to snatch him from under Man United's nose for Man City!

Their defence is only just better than Southampton's too

1 goal less conceded

But I agree, Man United's defence is more than good enough at the moment. It's their attacking play that needs sorting more than anything. Too much long ball!

Storm · 6 Mar 2003 at 12:55

I think the main problem is Beckham. He keeps coming
inside all the time these days instead of staying routed to
the wings.

Also Sir Fergie needs a permanent partner for Ruud.

Disco_Dave · 6 Mar 2003 at 16:48

Re: Re: Tired of failure

Originally posted by Storm
huh!!!! ???? HUH!!!! ?????

Pinning our hopes on the Worthy Cup. Its hardly like were
bottom of the league and out of the CL is it.

8 years of not bothering with the mickey mouse cup and then
we get near the final and some supporters think its the be all
and end all.

That's not the point...the point is that the mickey mouse was our best chance of silverware right from the start of the season...and thats just embarrassing.

sunama · 6 Mar 2003 at 21:42

Originally posted by Storm
I think the main problem is Beckham. He keeps coming
inside all the time these days instead of staying routed to
the wings.

Also Sir Fergie needs a permanent partner for Ruud.

very good points.

if we go back to the treble winning season and use that as a benchmark. in that season, becks used to stay routed to the right wing. we scored many many goals, using the following method: midfield >> becks >> yorke = goal.

also in that treble winning season we had TWO strikers, who were a good foil for one another. some of their spectacular goals were scored when the two strikers would conjure up intricate passes and leave defences absolutely no chance of defending against the goal. Ruud is playing upfront by himself. this means that an opposing defence will generally have him marked with 2 defenders. this makes it extremely difficult for him to score goals when u have 2 men tracking you. RvN needs a partner and for the premiership we need to revert back to 4-4-2. for whatever reason, in Europe, the 4-4-1-1 formation works perfectly.

in the premiership it must be very easy to mark out RvN with 2 defenders. Now if we had someone like bellamy, henry, ronlado or owen (fast and nimble) i think he would be a perfect foil for RvN. most high scoring teams in the premiership use one big guy and one smaller, faster guy (arsenal: bergkamp&henry, newcastle: shearer&bellamy). i think we should adopt the same approach. perhaps.

but hey, who are we to say. AF is the most successful manager in recent times and he almost certainly knows better than all of us.

[ASSE]Hinchy · 6 Mar 2003 at 21:49

Originally posted by sunama
but hey, who are we to say. AF is the most successful manager in recent times and he almost certainly knows better than all of us.

Have you seen our Championship Manager records? Some of us can put Fergie to shame

hehe

dirtydog · 6 Mar 2003 at 22:18

Originally posted by silverpaw
no, I agree, it's ludicrous. Maybe it's just the supporters who've known no different and don't understand football is about losing aswell as winning. Or 'not winning' in Man Utd's case as they've hardly had a bad season.

I find myself agreeing with you a lot recently :eek:

Never mind I'm sure it will pass

Some of my fellow Man Utd fans are guilty of throwing the baby out with the bath water I think.. we have been SPOILT in the last decade, with all the success we've had.. just because we do not win the league or a major trophy in a season is not the end of the world. We are SECOND in the league, ahead of some VERY good teams, and just behind an excellent Arsenal side. If we hadn't had injuries and a (by our standards in the Premiership) bad start to the season we would probably be top.

Let's keep things in perspective!

HangTime · 6 Mar 2003 at 22:40

Originally posted by silverpaw
5 years ago nobody was better than Man Ud, nobody had the infrastructure in place to bring the top quality youth players in, nor the marketing ability.

Funny way of showing their superiority, 5 years ago Arsenal did the double

Wenger has also showed it's possible to scout out/buy on the cheap good young talent (anelka, pennant, upson) rather than relying on bringing them through your own youth system "infrastructure".

However In general I agree with the point about Man utd's 'failure' being mainly due to other teams getting better. One key factor I feel is the depth of squads - In the old days, Man utd were the only team with a pool of quality backup players. Lately the rest of the modern day big 6 (Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Newcastle, Leeds) have big squads too, although obviously Leeds now just have a good team instead of a good squad having offloaded some players. The double winning Arsenal team of 1998 was pure quality, bergkamp was in his prime, anelka decimating defences , vieira and petit solid as rocks in the centre, overmars and parlour (shoulda gone to WC) ripping it up on the flanks. Seaman was less error prone and they still had to the good old reliable 1990s back four. Many on here won't agree with me, but I rate the overall first choice team of 1998 better than the current one, but there wasn't as much cover.

JAzz · 6 Mar 2003 at 22:58

Originally posted by HangTime
Many on here won't agree with me, but I rate the overall first choice team of 1998 better than the current one, but there wasn't as much cover.

Our defense back then was much much better but our attack is far better now.

Henry is better than anelka
pires is better than overmas
ljundberg is better than Parlour

And our team is better in europe, well it "should" be better but it seems to be a mental thing rather than ability thing.

Dtab · 6 Mar 2003 at 23:25

Whilst i'd rate Arsenal head and shoulders above everyone else,performance wise i think they were actually better last year than this tbh.Henry is better this year than last,but i think Llundberg,Pires,Bergkamp and Vieira are down a bit on last years levels .
That said i also think Man U were better last year than this too,and as for Liverpool........no comment needed

Exorcist · 7 Mar 2003 at 00:13

i think Man U have been the same this season.

its just an opposite though, last season we defended like West Ham but we look far more solid now with Ferdinand and Brown.

Its just now, dometically we couldnt hit a barnyard with a bulldozer.

the problems are offensively. Very predictable, no pace and no imagination.

Cemetery · 7 Mar 2003 at 01:11

Originally posted by Dtab
Henry is better this year than last,but i think Llundberg,Pires,Bergkamp and Vieira are down a bit on last years levels .

Gonna have to call you up on that point m8

Both Freddie & Bobby were out injured for a large majority of this season so saying they are a bit down on last years levels is a tad on the harsh side, especially looking at how awesome Pires has been since his return. Bergkamp doesn't get played too much & while VERA has had a few iffy games he has had some stormers as well.

JAzz · 7 Mar 2003 at 01:23

Originally posted by Cemetery
Gonna have to call you up on that point m8

Both Freddie & Bobby were out injured for a large majority of this season so saying they are a bit down on last years levels is a tad on the harsh side, especially looking at how awesome Pires has been since his return. Bergkamp doesn't get played too much & while VERA has had a few iffy games he has had some stormers as well.

who is this vera chap i dont think ive been paying enough attention to arsenal, i havent seen this vera dude play but he sounds like a good player

freddie looked great against charlton and pires is getting better and better every game, vieira has had too many little injuries this season and it really has affected his performances

Dtab · 7 Mar 2003 at 08:42

Originally posted by Cemetery
Gonna have to call you up on that point m8

Both Freddie & Bobby were out injured for a large majority of this season so saying they are a bit down on last years levels is a tad on the harsh side, especially looking at how awesome Pires has been since his return. Bergkamp doesn't get played too much & while VERA has had a few iffy games he has had some stormers as well.

Yeah,you're right about injuries being the overiding cause,they're still awesome players.I probably shouldn't have named individual players,cos my thought was really about Arsenal as a team.
When considering the capabilities of a team as a whole,it doesn't make much difference whether an individual player is playing less well because of injury or lack of form,the loss to the overall performance of the team is pretty much the same.
e.g. Last season they got c40+ games from a fighting fit Pires,then lost him for the last weeks of the season.This season he was out for the first few weeks,then had another few weeks being brought back into full match fitness,so they'll prob only get c25 games out of him as a fully match fit player this season.So overall,through no fault of his own, he contributed more last season to the team than he will be able to this year

Red and White · 7 Mar 2003 at 14:46

Originally posted by Disco_Dave
After watching the Worthington cup final defeat, I finally lost faith in Sir Alex Ferguson. I, like many fans was pinning hope on the Worthington cup as being the saviour to our season. Now that it has gone, what hope do we have?

This is truely messed up, you have qualified for champions league, you still could win league and champions league. Even if you dont you should be happy with the season, how about trying to support a team that loses every week and is facing relegation, then see how you would feel.

If your upset at Man Utd you'd probably top yourself if you supported Sunderland or West Brom.

This just goes to show that Man U fans are glory supporters and it makes me sick to my stomach.

hethers · 7 Mar 2003 at 16:28

Re: Re: Tired of failure

Originally posted by Clerkin
This is truely messed up, you have qualified for champions league, you still could win league and champions league. Even if you dont you should be happy with the season, how about trying to support a team that loses every week and is facing relegation, then see how you would feel.

If your upset at Man Utd you'd probably top yourself if you supported Sunderland or West Brom.

This just goes to show that Man U fans are glory supporters and it makes me sick to my stomach.

It's usually quite dangerous to generalise because people have a habit of proving you wrong. I, like many other ManU fans, on this forum and elsewhere, have supported them for many years. We even remember buying season tickets when our team was in the 2nd division.

Every successful team will have supporters who only support them because of that success. I warrant that Arsenal have recently acquired many in that category.

As for being "sick to your stomach" I can only suggest you either see a doctor or look around you to see what's going on in the world, or perhaps both.

Disco_Dave · 7 Mar 2003 at 17:23

Re: Re: Tired of failure

Originally posted by Clerkin
This is truely messed up, you have qualified for champions league, you still could win league and champions league. Even if you dont you should be happy with the season, how about trying to support a team that loses every week and is facing relegation, then see how you would feel.

If your upset at Man Utd you'd probably top yourself if you supported Sunderland or West Brom.

This just goes to show that Man U fans are glory supporters and it makes me sick to my stomach.

Just because I'm upset with the set up at Man Utd doesn't mean I am a glory supporter, I still support them and I always will.

The thing is that with Man utd there is a certain expectation that they should at least finish as runner up in the league, do well in domestic cup competitions and qualify for the last 8 of the Champions league for example. These are all realistic targets of which only the CL is currently going to plan.

With a club that starts the season with relegation a possibility, the fans won't be as upset if they are in a dogfight. It is what was expected of the club.

Cemetery · 7 Mar 2003 at 19:55

Re: Re: Re: Tired of failure

Originally posted by Disco_Dave
The thing is that with Man utd there is a certain expectation that they should at least finish as runner up in the league, do well in domestic cup competitions and qualify for the last 8 of the Champions league for example. These are all realistic targets of which only the CL is currently going to plan.

Hmmm:

as current things stand:

Runner up in League
Finalist of 1 domestic cup, knocked out by potential winner in FA cup.
Already qualified for the next round of the CL.

So really they are bang on for the 'certain' man u expectations surely?