Toblerone, minimum wage & brexit

So that makes 50% of the workforce that?
All those essential jobs that run countries every day. Thank God for zero ambition?

Edited oh god it's only 5.4% need a new argument this one's a lot smaller than I thought lol
 
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placeholder said:
Its nothing to do with that, its simply the devaluation of my job. I went to Uni, I placed myself in debt and I worked hard in order to do as well as I possibly could. My £24k a year job places me at a certain point to reflect that when that job was £x more than the "lowly unskilled job" that I could have got straight away.

I don't begrudge the person who does the menial work a decent wage if my wage went up too but mine doesn't. My job that was valued at £5-7 an hour above the lower paid jobs a few years back is now worth only a couple of quid more despite both jobs being exactly the same.
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Why are you picking an arbitrary figure such as "absolute hourly earnings above minimum wage" as your measure of success anyway? Is it just your role at your current employer that hasn't seen a raise? What about other differences - do you have stable predictable hours, a chance of progression etc etc.

Arguing that someone worse off than you shouldn't get a raise because you're insecure enough to think it devalues your own work is misguided in my opinion.
 
Caged said:
Why are you picking an arbitrary figure such as "absolute hourly earnings above minimum wage" as your measure of success anyway? Is it just your role at your current employer that hasn't seen a raise? What about other differences - do you have stable predictable hours, a chance of progression etc etc.

Arguing that someone worse off than you shouldn't get a raise because you're insecure enough to think it devalues your own work is misguided in my opinion.
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I haven't said someone shouldn't get a raise. Im not insecure either. You are trying to read things into what I'm saying that aren't there.

I have acquired a job that pays x. I worked to get said job and it sits in the world of jobs where it does. The market decided it was worth £24k a year at some point in the past.

All Im saying is that it sat at £24k a year when minimum wage either didn't exist or was at its lowest level. Today the minimum wage has been raised but my wage hasn't. My job hasn't been increased in value the same way the minimum wage job has even though both mythical jobs remain exactly the same in practical terms. I am forced to accept minuscule pay rises while the minimum wage person gets relatively huge increases.

That isn't fair by any stretch of the imagination.
 
This is one of the strangest arguments I've ever read. I can't even begin to see why you are comparing A to Z and coming up with a logical ground for comparison.

So you've been earning a good wage but because some barman got a 50p pay rise ph you are jealous? What.... He or she being able to afford to put some frozen food on the table upsets you?

If you stopped blaming others for your own lack of success like most British do you might stop seeing it so negatively.
What is it with the British race to the bottom culture? I really don't miss that aspect.
 
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If you were on £24k at a point in the past when minimum wage wasn't touching it, and you're planning to still be on £24k when the 'living' wage comes around, then only you can change that.
 
The minimum wage destroys a lot of jobs because it makes it unprofitable to employ anyone who can't generate more revenue per hour than the minimum wage. Some people benefit from it because they are necessary to the company even if they don't directly generate revenue, eg cleaners. But some people would be in work now if it were not for the minimum wage.
 
We would arguably have full employment of it wasn't for minimum wage... Combine it with scrapping the benefits system and you are Dolph heaven.
 
Efour said:
Why does he feel entitled to a payrise if he has been earning above minimum wage all this time, he hasnt lost money, hes still getting paid EXACTLY the same ammount.
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effectively he has had a pay cut.

prices rise due to the increased cost of wages his wages dont increase and so his buying power is reduced.
 
Minimum wage increase, will eventually (I mean there is ultimately a limit) cause inflation all on its own, this might make it slightly bearable for people on the minimum wage (because they've been getting by just before), but people with mortgages and perhaps near-field credit issues will become dangerously close to falling into poverty.

It also kills small businesses who can't really charge too aggressive a price unless its a super-niche product in an affluent area (which isn't very useful).

So all it does is support huge multi-nationals and makes the lowest end look like they are being supported by government so they don't run away/revolt. Amazing.
 
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Minimum wage is essentially a tariff barrier against foreign cheap labour. Unfortunately unless you also raise a similar tariff barrier against the imported goods manufactured with that foreign cheap labour, (And also take measures to discourage foreign cheap labour from moving to the UK to take advantage of the higher wages here) it is unlikely to generate any real long term benefit.
 
5% more people earn a few pence more and there's outrage on ocuk :P
Attack some of the poorest in society.... You terrible people
 
Efour said:
5% more people earn a few pence more and there's outrage on ocuk :P
Attack some of the poorest in society.... You terrible people ��
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Poorest?

The poorest are purely on benefits and more will be on them as a result of the minimum rise, great plan.

But nah, those benefit scroungers! eh?
 
placeholder said:
I haven't said someone shouldn't get a raise. Im not insecure either. You are trying to read things into what I'm saying that aren't there.

I have acquired a job that pays x. I worked to get said job and it sits in the world of jobs where it does. The market decided it was worth £24k a year at some point in the past.

All Im saying is that it sat at £24k a year when minimum wage either didn't exist or was at its lowest level. Today the minimum wage has been raised but my wage hasn't. My job hasn't been increased in value the same way the minimum wage job has even though both mythical jobs remain exactly the same in practical terms. I am forced to accept minuscule pay rises while the minimum wage person gets relatively huge increases.

That isn't fair by any stretch of the imagination.
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I get what you're saying, and can't understand why others (not pointing fingers) can't see the obvious point you're making.

At 24k a year works out around £11.50 an hour. If the NMW is set to rise to at least £10/hr by 2020, after you've paid your tax that £1.50 difference will barely be £1. At which point you think why bother with the stress of this job when i can go and stack shelves for pretty much the same money.

Ok i'm obviously not taking into account things like job security with specific roles - i.e. a shelf-stacker can be replaced by anyone, but your role may require a specific skill-set. And then there's the likes of job progression.

It's easy for people to say, don't compare yourself with the next guy, just focus on you. Unfortunately the society we live in today just isn't like that - a prime example are people buying cars on finance when they can't afford them.
 
Semple said:
I get what you're saying, and can't understand why others (not pointing fingers) can't see the obvious point you're making.

At 24k a year works out around £11.50 an hour. If the NMW is set to rise to at least £10/hr by 2020, after you've paid your tax that £1.50 difference will barely be £1. At which point you think why bother with the stress of this job when i can go and stack shelves for pretty much the same money.

Ok i'm obviously not taking into account things like job security with specific roles - i.e. a shelf-stacker can be replaced by anyone, but your role may require a specific skill-set. And then there's the likes of job progression.

It's easy for people to say, don't compare yourself with the next guy, just focus on you. Unfortunately the society we live in today just isn't like that - a prime example are people buying cars on finance when they can't afford them.
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There's also the fact that the person who goes to uni will already be 3 years wages and tens of thousands in debt behind someone leaving school and going straight into a job that requires no qualifications.

Even with the current NMW of £7.50, that's £13.5k pa take home for 40 hrs/week.

So a graduate will be £40.5k behind in earnings and £40k or so in debt (quick Google gives the average student debt as £44k). How long is it going to take for that £80k investment to become financially sound if they're only earning £1-2pph more than their peers who started work fresh out of school?
 
Efour said:
This is one of the strangest arguments I've ever read. I can't even begin to see why you are comparing A to Z and coming up with a logical ground for comparison.

So you've been earning a good wage but because some barman got a 50p pay rise ph you are jealous? What.... He or she being able to afford to put some frozen food on the table upsets you?

If you stopped blaming others for your own lack of success like most British do you might stop seeing it so negatively.
What is it with the British race to the bottom culture? I really don't miss that aspect.
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You arent seeing it at all or are just choosing to ignore it. You work for enjoyment of life, whether thats enjoying your job or enjoying the money you get from it. If you train, get skilled and get a good wage then you'll get a higher quality of life (defined by less financial pressure, more money for toys etc) than someone on minimum wage. As minimum wage increases and the cost of items gets higher your quality of life GOES DOWN if you dont get a payrise.

Take my own position for example. I've worked in my supervisory role for a while now. I quite enjoy the position and the job has its perks but i started at 7.25 when the minimum wage was 5.80. Minimum wage is now 7.25 and when that happened my wage increased to 7.50. If my wage had increased proportionally over the years i'd be on 9.00 per hour right now not 7.50, yet my role hasnt changed and the same work is expected of me.

Over a month thats a couple of hundred pounds more spending power conpared to what i have for what is exactly the same job as it was when i started.

Its definitely something to be unhappy about and is why i'm looking for a new job. To add insult to injury i'm paid £10ph with the same company on a different site contract as a basic worker for an hour a day. If my original job paid properly i could be working 1 hour less per day and getting the same amount as i do working both contracts, which means more time to fix cars and do stuff i enjoy.
 
At the end of the day jacking up the NMW and introducing the LW as a means to make the bottom rung of workers "richer" is a fallacy.

Wages go up, prices go up and eventually it levels out and everyone is just as poor as they once were.

Yet the 95% of people not on minimum wage and therefore no forced wage increase are in fact even poorer than they were.
 
Rroff said:
Most companies I've had anything to do with balanced out minimum wage increases by other changes i.e. hiring freezes/redistributing workloads, reducing salary increases/bonus, ceasing to provide additional staff services like subsidised vending machines, etc. etc. rather than passing the cost onto the end product directly.
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Say this to people who advocate higher minimum wage and they will tell you its all a LIE :rolleyes:
 
No i do get it.

I do not undestand why you attack those workers that are going to get the increase instead of those employers that are cutting you short.

Why Always go for the lowest hanging fruit

This guys example he gets paid 7.50 on one site but ten on Another....
Whos being ripped off.

Why dont you ask your employers why you havent got a pay raise over the past X years. Why have you settled for it all this time but only got upset when somone else has been given a break.

i cant do question marks on this stupid keyboard \\

yeah its Classic socialist redistribution of wealth. I appreciate i have a very different Outlook on it compared to most on here. But thats good for discussion.
 
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Energize said:
The minimum wage destroys a lot of jobs
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That's a classic logical fallacy - the evidence doesn't support that statement.

There are lots of articles saying it will, but it's all scaremongering by business owners/leaders/wealth hoarders. There is practically zero empirical evidence showing min wage has a significant impact on employment. Reminds me of this:-

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