Today's mass shooting in the US

[ianh]

Looks like reality is more complex than simply a question of what the gun laws are.

But............but guns are bad m'kay

There will always be some that understand that this is a complex issue, just as there will always be some entrenched in the view that only their view is "morally" right (irrespective of legality) and sadly there will always be some at the extremes ruining it for others.

Guns are just another issue for people to verbally spar over I feel.

 

[kinetic747]

It seems like a step forwards to people who support it. People who are allowed to own guns in Texas are already allowed to carry main weapon guns anywhere. This law extends that to sidearm guns. Is that a huge difference? I'm not sure.



Very likely, but in Texas almost everyone shot will not be "black" so their lives don't matter.



It's very simple to understand:

1) People who think that civilians have a right to bear arms see removing an obstacle to civilians bearing arms as being a good move on philosophical grounds.
2) People who think that armed civilians can defend themselves and others see removing an obstacle to civilians bearing arms being a good move on practical grounds.

You don't have to agree with either, but they're both simple positions to understand.



Damn...Wyoming is already way more extreme than Texas when it comes to gun laws. Or, more accurately, lack of them. Not only are state laws regarding gun ownership along the lines of "anyone can carry any gun (other than full auto) open and/or concealed as long as they're not a convicted violent felon", Wyoming state law very explicitly forbids any local government from imposing any restrictions, explicitly states that they will not enforce federal gun restriction laws and goes as far as they can in preventing federal authorities enforcing federal gun restrictions.

A Wyoming resident can literally walk into a shop, buy a handgun and a rifle and ammunition with and walk out again with the loaded rifle slung over their shoulder and the loaded handgun concealed in an easy access holster under their clothing. Then stroll down the street. No delay. No registration. The concealed carry would require a Wyoming concealed permit, which must be issued without question to any Wyoming resident who wants one and who doesn't have a violent felony conviction. If the guns have "made in Wyoming" on them, no problem. Even if the carrying is in breach of national USA law, no Wyoming authority is allowed to enforce that law.

So Wyoming must be an active war zone, people getting shot every 5 minutes!

https://www.cityrating.com/crime-statistics/wyoming/



https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/murder-rate-by-state



That's even lower than the UK! Only just (UK is 1.1 per 100,000 residents), but that's a hell of a low level of homicide. And that's all homicides, not just shooting homicides.


Looks like reality is more complex than simply a question of what the gun laws are.

Interesting stats. I see Wyoming is one of the least densely populated States, perhaps they're too far apart to shoot each other.

 

[kinetic747]

.

 

[JRS]

But............but guns are bad m'kay

Don't be infantile ianh Guns are a tool, nothing more. Lax regulation of guns is the problematic bit.

***edit***

Kinda amazing* how the US got from "[a] well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" to this:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433428213745606667

* - read: amazingly stupid

 

[Angilion]

Interesting stats. I see Wyoming is one of the least densely populated States, perhaps they're too far apart to shoot each other.

Therefore handguns will be fine because most people aren't very accurate shooting them at range

Joking aside, I think population density really is a factor. Whatever the overall murder rate, it's generally higher per capita in more densely populated areas.

 

[Werewolf]

Therefore handguns will be fine because most people aren't very accurate shooting them at range

Joking aside, I think population density really is a factor. Whatever the overall murder rate, it's generally higher per capita in more densely populated areas.

Yup

IIRC unless the society has developed in a certain way to avoid antagonising your neighbours etc if you put people in close proximity for prolonged periods of time, especially when there are other issues (stress about things like job security, healthcare, the "outsider" etc) you get a situation where the denser the population the higher the level of violence is likely to be because people don't get time to unwind, and they're more likely to resort to violence.
Add in easy access to guns and things that would otherwise have likely ended in a shouting match or a slapfest result in deaths, often over silly things like parking disputes...

The insane thing about the new Texan law is that it's actually much freer than most of the classic "western" towns, and emulates the ones with the worst murder rates. Most Western towns back in the days of the classic cowboys had specific rules on guns inside the town limits, basically unless you were a member of the law enforcement you were not allowed to carry them around except on your way into, or out of town, with visitors expected to turn them in at the likes of the Sheriff's office or the inn they were staying at, and residents were expected to leave them in their house unless there was an emergency or they were going outside of the town limits.
It seems that people in the 1800's had a better understanding of how bad a mix guns and drink etc were than the modern NRA controlled Reublicans.

The utterly insane thing is that there is no requirement for any training, so any idiot can walk into the store thinking he's Rambo or Arnie and pick up a gun that will in all likelyhood be left loaded and unattended on a regular basis, and if there is ever a "need" for it, they won't have a clue how to handle it properly or it might not even be a gun suitable for the job as they've gone with something that looks intimidating rather than easy to use.
When you start to look at high profile Republican/NRA figures there is a surprisingly high number of them who espouse gun safety but have had nasty incidents with them, ranging from shooting their friends whilst hunting, to shooting themselves, to getting shot by their toddler who they'd been "training in gun safety" (to show the "libs" children are safe with them) when they've left the weapon they desperately need for protection out of their own reach on the back seat of their car, but next to the toddler who has pulled out the loaded gun and pointed it at mummy's back whilst pulling the trigger as taught...

 

[Angilion]

Yup

IIRC unless the society has developed in a certain way to avoid antagonising your neighbours etc if you put people in close proximity for prolonged periods of time, especially when there are other issues (stress about things like job security, healthcare, the "outsider" etc) you get a situation where the denser the population the higher the level of violence is likely to be because people don't get time to unwind, and they're more likely to resort to violence.
Add in easy access to guns and things that would otherwise have likely ended in a shouting match or a slapfest result in deaths, often over silly things like parking disputes...

The insane thing about the new Texan law is that it's actually much freer than most of the classic "western" towns, and emulates the ones with the worst murder rates. Most Western towns back in the days of the classic cowboys had specific rules on guns inside the town limits, basically unless you were a member of the law enforcement you were not allowed to carry them around except on your way into, or out of town, with visitors expected to turn them in at the likes of the Sheriff's office or the inn they were staying at, and residents were expected to leave them in their house unless there was an emergency or they were going outside of the town limits.
It seems that people in the 1800's had a better understanding of how bad a mix guns and drink etc were than the modern NRA controlled Reublicans.

In some ways it goes back even further than that. There are quite a few surviving medieval records of weapon restriction laws and where such records exist they were generally along the same lines. Different weapons, same general idea. Even down to the use of the inn as a weapons store. Different rules in different towns. No rules in some towns. No records in some towns. But "don't routinely carry weapons around town" was probably a fairly common thing. Because people are people.

 

[Roar87]

Yup

IIRC unless the society has developed in a certain way to avoid antagonising your neighbours etc if you put people in close proximity for prolonged periods of time, especially when there are other issues (stress about things like job security, healthcare, the "outsider" etc) you get a situation where the denser the population the higher the level of violence is likely to be because people don't get time to unwind, and they're more likely to resort to violence.
Add in easy access to guns and things that would otherwise have likely ended in a shouting match or a slapfest result in deaths, often over silly things like parking disputes...

The insane thing about the new Texan law is that it's actually much freer than most of the classic "western" towns, and emulates the ones with the worst murder rates. Most Western towns back in the days of the classic cowboys had specific rules on guns inside the town limits, basically unless you were a member of the law enforcement you were not allowed to carry them around except on your way into, or out of town, with visitors expected to turn them in at the likes of the Sheriff's office or the inn they were staying at, and residents were expected to leave them in their house unless there was an emergency or they were going outside of the town limits.
It seems that people in the 1800's had a better understanding of how bad a mix guns and drink etc were than the modern NRA controlled Reublicans.

The utterly insane thing is that there is no requirement for any training, so any idiot can walk into the store thinking he's Rambo or Arnie and pick up a gun that will in all likelyhood be left loaded and unattended on a regular basis, and if there is ever a "need" for it, they won't have a clue how to handle it properly or it might not even be a gun suitable for the job as they've gone with something that looks intimidating rather than easy to use.
When you start to look at high profile Republican/NRA figures there is a surprisingly high number of them who espouse gun safety but have had nasty incidents with them, ranging from shooting their friends whilst hunting, to shooting themselves, to getting shot by their toddler who they'd been "training in gun safety" (to show the "libs" children are safe with them) when they've left the weapon they desperately need for protection out of their own reach on the back seat of their car, but next to the toddler who has pulled out the loaded gun and pointed it at mummy's back whilst pulling the trigger as taught...

It's bizarre you sat there typing up 3 long-winded paragraphs where you invent this stereotype of a "Republican NRA" guy who goes out and buys an AR-15 because it looks scary and then leaves it loaded around his toddler. This just isn't an accurate reflection of American society, most gun deaths are crime and gang related, people buy hand guns and get into a dispute about drugs, it's not the Republican voter with his American flag on the front porch, it's the random scrotes keeping hand guns in their car glove box etc. Please educate yourself, watch some American cop footage, there's loads on Youtube.

 

[bainbridge]

It's bizarre you sat there typing up 3 long-winded paragraphs where you invent this stereotype of a "Republican NRA" guy who goes out and buys an AR-15 because it looks scary and then leaves it loaded around his toddler. This just isn't an accurate reflection of American society, most gun deaths are crime and gang related, people buy hand guns and get into a dispute about drugs, it's not the Republican voter with his American flag on the front porch, it's the random scrotes keeping hand guns in their car glove box etc. Please educate yourself, watch some American cop footage, there's loads on Youtube.

A huge number of gun deaths are suicides too, I remember reading somewhere. Admittedly not really on topic, but I suspect a number of those suicides would still be alive today if they didn't have access to instant death with the pull of e trigger.

 

[Meridian]

This just isn't an accurate reflection of American society, most gun deaths are crime and gang related, people buy hand guns and get into a dispute about drugs, it's not the Republican voter with his American flag on the front porch, it's the random scrotes keeping hand guns in their car glove box etc.

He's right, you're wrong. The number are roughly, for a ten year period:

1100 people shot dead while committing a crime
10,000 shot dead by accident or murdered by legally owned firearms while not committing any offence.
20,000 committed suicide with a legally held firearm.

Exact number vary from year to year, but the general proportions do not.

 

[Angilion]

He's right, you're wrong. The number are roughly, for a ten year period:

1100 people shot dead while committing a crime
10,000 shot dead by accident or murdered by legally owned firearms while not committing any offence.
20,000 committed suicide with a legally held firearm.

Exact number vary from year to year, but the general proportions do not.

Those figures show about ~90% of homicides by shooting being done with a legally owned gun with the dead person not proven to be in the process of committing a crime at the time. That doesn't rule out most of those deaths being crime and gang related.

So Roar87 was strictly speaking wrong to say that about most gun deaths in the USA are crime and gang related because most gun deaths in the USA are suicide, but they might well be right about most gun homicides in the USA.

Also, I think your figures must be wrong because they don't include anyone shot dead with an illegally owned gun while they weren't proven to be committing any crime at the time. I think it's extremely unlikely that zero is the true number for that.

 

[d_brennen]

WellRegulatedMilitia

@Well_Regulated_
·
Aug 31

A member of our well regulated militia arms himself to check for intruders after hearing a noise. He opens a closet door, sees a silhouette, and opens fire - shooting his 8 year old daughter who was inside the closet. She doesn’t survive.

If you think guns for plebs is a good idea, there's no saving you.

 

[BowdonUK]

Guns used to be widely available across the UK until just after the end of WW2, when the government were thinking people might start stocking up their arms.

I was watching an old black and white film about Winston Churchill visiting parts of London. A bank robbery happened and it showed his bodyguards and members of the public having a shoot out with the bank robbers.

I think it was the documentary about Churchills bodyguard that shows the footage.

 

[Chris Wilson]

I see Ardern the Apologist has had security forces doing 24 hour surveillance on a known ISIS sympathiser for over 6 years (yep, six years, do the maths and weep), and anti western propagandist, yet the security detail decided to let him enter a supermarket alone, a prime location for atrocities, because they thought he was "just getting his shopping". Whilst shopping he thought it expedient to knife at least six fellow shoppers. I can't name the terrorist because New Zealand have decided naming him might offend his rights, so he enjoys anonymity in death. At least they shot him, just six years too late.

Somewhere between America oozing with high power fire arms in nearly every home, and the wet that "runs" New Zealand walking on political and religious eggshells a balance lies.

 

[Jean-F]

Guns used to be widely available across the UK until just after the end of WW2, when the government were thinking people might start stocking up their arms.

I was watching an old black and white film about Winston Churchill visiting parts of London. A bank robbery happened and it showed his bodyguards and members of the public having a shoot out with the bank robbers.

I think it was the documentary about Churchills bodyguard that shows the footage.

I’m going way out on a limb here, but are you sure that it wasn’t an old black and white newsreel of the siege of Sidney Street, which happened in 1910?
That was a shootout between armed police and two Latvian revolutionaries, Churchill was there, as then Home Secretary.
The Latvians had attempted to rob a jewellery shop in Houndsditch, City of London.

 

[Freakbro]

I’m going way out on a limb here, but are you sure that it wasn’t an old black and white newsreel of the siege of Sidney Street?
That was a shootout between armed police and two Latvian revolutionaries, Churchill was there, as then Home Secretary.
The Latvians had attempted to rob a jewellery shop in Houndsditch, City of London.

Were you just dropping off a fare at the time?

 

[Jean-F]

Were you just dropping off a fare at the time?

Yes, I got a copper to hold the horse of my hansom cab while I had a chat with Churchill

 

[Washout]

I see Ardern the Apologist has had security forces doing 24 hour surveillance on a known ISIS sympathiser for over 6 years (yep, six years, do the maths and weep), and anti western propagandist, yet the security detail decided to let him enter a supermarket alone, a prime location for atrocities, because they thought he was "just getting his shopping". Whilst shopping he thought it expedient to knife at least six fellow shoppers. I can't name the terrorist because New Zealand have decided naming him might offend his rights, so he enjoys anonymity in death. At least they shot him, just six years too late.

Somewhere between America oozing with high power fire arms in nearly every home, and the wet that "runs" New Zealand walking on political and religious eggshells a balance lies.

Not knowing the specifics of this one but I'm not sure what else they could do up until a crime has actually been committed? We don't have Minority Report psychics just yet. Presumably he's done a lot of shopping in the last 6 years. Should they have put a bullet in his head while he was out fetching some milk?
Unless you think it's a good idea that the state can just sweep up/kill people who might cause trouble? Where do you draw the line? What happens when your views don't align with the governments? The Americans sort of did that with Gitmo bay and that birthed isis!

Keeping armed surveillance on someone for 6+ years actually seems the opposite of what you're trying to say. Over here they'd have given up after a few weeks if they hadn't mis-behaved.

 

[Jean-F]

I see they caught the second person in the Austin TX shooting.

He was taken into custody while enrolled in a summer school class

17-year-old Jeremiah Roshaun Leland James Tabb will be tried as an adult.

Discussing Texas via email with a NYC attorney friend she sent me this;
You can have a gun but not an abortion in Texas — go figure!

 

[Chris Wilson]

Not knowing the specifics of this one but I'm not sure what else they could do up until a crime has actually been committed? We don't have Minority Report psychics just yet. Presumably he's done a lot of shopping in the last 6 years. Should they have put a bullet in his head while he was out fetching some milk?
Unless you think it's a good idea that the state can just sweep up/kill people who might cause trouble? Where do you draw the line? What happens when your views don't align with the governments? The Americans sort of did that with Gitmo bay and that birthed isis!

Keeping armed surveillance on someone for 6+ years actually seems the opposite of what you're trying to say. Over here they'd have given up after a few weeks if they hadn't mis-behaved.

The Hungarian approach is none violent and effective, Victor has the Right idea to maintain peace without spending a fortune on future osteopathy on the bent knee brigades, or impractical and hugely expensive lifetime surveillance on known wanton terrorists in their midst.