Train drivers = greed

Come off it - the level of complexity of a flying plane is many times greater than that of a train - it really doesn't need pointing out in detail - also it isn't just the 'responsibility' - bus drivers also share a responsibility to look after their passengers tbh...



IMO you've got a large salary because you've got powerful unions - the rail industry isn't a complete free market and it is simply the structure in place at the moment that has allowed you to be overpaid.

the potential pool of train drivers are people with GCSEs/Olevels who can pass a test involving looking at a bunch of dots and reacting quickly to lights etc... and there is a huge oversupply of applicants

Yes it is safety critical - so what - what you actually do day to day is fairly mundane - the training hardly justifies such a huge premium tbh..

Yes there is a huge supply of applicants,but as I've already stated,very few make the grade.And we get alls sorts applying,from professional enviroments (law,armed services,medicine etc).

Do you really think a pilot of a 747 actually flies the thing? No,you're being a little naive I'm afraid.[Edit] Oh and a 747 pilot gets paid circa 70k-80k IIRC [edit]

And as I've already stated,we are paid for what we know,not what we do.We carry more passengers in a working day than any other form of transport.A 12 car train in one journey carries 1200 people on a busy trip from Brighton to London.Would you want the person at the front in control to be trained to a suitably high standard,to have the ability,knowledge and training to save lives? Training which takes just over a year I might add.Yes I will agree that our union has helped negotiate reasonable pay rises,but does this make the pay wrong? You obviously believe so,and that is your right.All I can say to counter that is every one of my trainees has found the training extremely difficult and admitted they had utterly no idea of the level of hard work needed to become a train driver before they joined.Or the level of work needed to keep the job once they'd passed.
 
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Some jobs are underpaid thats correct, that doesn't mean you aren't overpaid.

lets get into this in more detail. What exactly do you do when breaking gets bad because there's leaves on the track. I have ZERO knowledge past being on trains, but at a guess i would say, leaves on the track obvious BEFORE a situation happens, speed is reduced. You break its much less responsive than normal you assume a leave on a wheel, hmm, i don't know, you take the breaks off for a second and try again hoping the leave moves a little. If trains are set up so you can turn only some brakes on, IE one button lets you disable one carraige's breaks, you turn one set off at a time?

I honestly don't know but, frankly thats all part and parcel of learning to drive ANYTHING. Car driving you learn for the tests what the breaking distances are, how much they increase in wet weather "safe" speeds in differing weather etc. Most of that goes out the window after the test but simple practice allows you to judge things after practice. Most of the situation critical things that can happen, fires and what not, you have a safety procedure, its not quantum physics. Probably, call in fire, stop all traffic local, get people off train and to safety, big whoop.

At the end of the day you might be responsible for lots of passengers, but you can't accidentally swerve into oncoming traffic in normal situations, as a driver of anything else(bar trams) and planes that is NOT the case, any second of any minute of any day driving you could just turn and crash into traffic, its simply not the same situation.

Society needs to work as a whole, transport is pretty basic, and probably shouldn't be well paid, ok paid is fine, but frankly its not the most difficult job, really a lot of people can do it. Making train drivers highly paid increases ticket prices and that means everyone else, including that underpaid bus driver or fireman using the tube gets screwed. You make 40k a year in a relatively basic job to be honest, if everyone in a basic jobs in services public simply can't avoid using ALL got paid that much a lot of people simply wouldn't be able to afford to use public transport, taxes would be awful if firemen, police and everyone else got that much.
 
In addition I think the comparison with a pilot is a moot one.We are both paid to be responsible,but that's where the comparison should end.A pilot is also expected to pay for a large amount of his own training,where-as we aren't.

But then a pilots salary,even for easyjet,starts out at 70k.This rises to 100k for larger companies.

Source.

So..are they overpaid?
 
In addition I think the comparison with a pilot is a moot one.We are both paid to be responsible,but that's where the comparison should end.A pilot is also expected to pay for a large amount of his own training,where-as we aren't.

But then a pilots salary,even for easyjet,starts out at 70k.This rises to 100k for larger companies.

Source.

So..are they overpaid?

nope, they have the same responsibilities, a LOT more systems to go wrong, A LOT. they have to deal with weather, they have to deal with multiple different air traffic controllers, you would think a 2nd language would be almost needed, and a 3rd/4th/5th---10th fairly useful also. Lets see, i would say there are exponentially more things that can go wrong with a plane than a train, so risk, difficulty and training are far more crucial. lets see, what happens when a train loses power, oh, it slows down and stops, is that what happens to a plane when it loses power at 40,000ft?

If they lose power at that kind of altitude its still very possible to land a plane without any casualties, can you glide a plane in? can you compensate for a broken tail, do trains lose pressure and oxygen?

the two are so far from comparable, you are correct. maybe they are overpaid, maybe not, that has NO bearing on if you are overpaid, which you are.

Frankly, whats deemed exceptable pay, fairly or unfairly, is by the people that use the service, now good they find the service and how good value they find it. Trains are overpriced, prone to delays and very few people find the service outstanding, thats why most people think you are all overpaid. Thats the majority opinion, thats fact. Every job has its difficulties(well most), and their responsibilities, not everyone has a great union.

One doctor might only be responsible for one patient at a time, but what about a guy who screws up a new drug and causes millions of people to have problems. Just because you can see the people you move daily doesn't mean you have a inherently dangerous job that very few people can do.

Also to say few make the grade. ANY job, ANY profession, when you have more people applying than you need, will simply narrow down the field by taking the best that DOESN'T mean few make the required grade to be drivers by any means. That doesn't mean that if less were applying than needed the testing would be far less difficult and all the same people turned away before wouldn't be hired and pass all training fine.
 
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planes are and have mostly been used for luxury travel, trains are for the everyday Joe, the problem is trains are getting far to expensive to use for the everyday Joe!
 
Some jobs are underpaid thats correct, that doesn't mean you aren't overpaid.

lets get into this in more detail. What exactly do you do when breaking gets bad because there's leaves on the track. I have ZERO knowledge past being on trains, but at a guess i would say, leaves on the track obvious BEFORE a situation happens, speed is reduced. You break its much less responsive than normal you assume a leave on a wheel, hmm, i don't know, you take the breaks off for a second and try again hoping the leave moves a little. If trains are set up so you can turn only some brakes on, IE one button lets you disable one carraige's breaks, you turn one set off at a time?

I honestly don't know but, frankly thats all part and parcel of learning to drive ANYTHING. Car driving you learn for the tests what the breaking distances are, how much they increase in wet weather "safe" speeds in differing weather etc. Most of that goes out the window after the test but simple practice allows you to judge things after practice. Most of the situation critical things that can happen, fires and what not, you have a safety procedure, its not quantum physics. Probably, call in fire, stop all traffic local, get people off train and to safety, big whoop.

At the end of the day you might be responsible for lots of passengers, but you can't accidentally swerve into oncoming traffic in normal situations, as a driver of anything else(bar trams) and planes that is NOT the case, any second of any minute of any day driving you could just turn and crash into traffic, its simply not the same situation.

Society needs to work as a whole, transport is pretty basic, and probably shouldn't be well paid, ok paid is fine, but frankly its not the most difficult job, really a lot of people can do it. Making train drivers highly paid increases ticket prices and that means everyone else, including that underpaid bus driver or fireman using the tube gets screwed. You make 40k a year in a relatively basic job to be honest, if everyone in a basic jobs in services public simply can't avoid using ALL got paid that much a lot of people simply wouldn't be able to afford to use public transport, taxes would be awful if firemen, police and everyone else got that much.

I believe it's because you have 'ZERO knowledge past being on trains' that makes you think we're overpaid.I will deal with the adhesion question though.A car,bus,lorry will all have a braking distance comprised of hazard perception time coupled with reaction time and then a mechanical stopping distance.Obviously a car will stop faster than a lorry/bus..I'm not sure on the distances involved.Normal stopping distance on a train at 90mph is close to a mile.

Ok,you state that leaves on the line will be something that is known about beforehand.Not true.More leaves fall off the trees when a strong wind blows.During autumn,the track conditions can change by the minute.As can the road conditions of course.When the leaves get crushed by the train wheels it forms a cellulose type compound and gets spread over a wide area gradually.This gunk isn't dangerous by itself.It needs moisture to become slippery.Network rail manage and maintain the rails.The majority of cleaning gets done at night,to stop interruption of passenger services.this means that track conditions can be incredibly varied throughout the day.A train doesnt have the ability to 'turn some brakes on' individually.A train wheel's contact patch on the rail is no bigger than your thumbnail.To show how this affects adhesion,tip cooking oil over your kitchen floor (providing it's not carpeted :D ) ,now strap a teaspoon under each shoe.Try walking..hell try stopping.That's what it's like for a train wheel.

If we lose concentration during these periods,we go where the rail takes us.We can't,as you've already pointed out,swerve.We can't swerve onto a grass verge.We can't take any action other than putting the brake into emergency.We may as well sit in with the passengers.A lot of trains have smart sanding systems that help when the rail is contaminated slightly.Not when it's heavily contaminated.

And to top all this off,I'm liable for a manslaughter charge should a death occur as a result of my lack of concentration.If Michael Hodder hadn't died,I firmly believe he would have had to endure this.

Look at the history of rail accidents Linky where the driver's actions have been brought into question.Look at the death toll over the last 11 years on the railways.Isn't it prudent to pay an attractive salary to attract the right applicants? How many idiotic bus drivers (yes,I was one of those too :o ) have you witnessed? Or lorry drivers drifting around motorway lanes? Do you want to risk this with train drivers? An attractive salary needs to be in place to get the best applicants.I'm not suggesting that all applicants are of a high standard,but the salary means serious,safe and professional people apply too and we can pick and choose who we want.

I'm aware that learning to drive anything is a task that can be learnt by anyone.Hell,I could teach my 12 year old son to drive a train.That's only a small part of our remit.To be able to practically apply a massive amount of rules and regulations under immense pressure;to be able to handle emergency situations;to concentrate intensely for large portions of the day;to finish work at 02.00 sunday morning then get up for work at 04.00 monday...these all require a certain calibre of individual.

And why does the fact that some jobs are underpaid mean that I am overpaid? Surely it means that these jobs that are underpaid need to be brought in line? I don't know what you do for a living and I would certainly never presume to tell you you were overpaid if I didn't know what the job entailed.Footballers are overpaid.Movie stars are overpaid.Let's get a sense of perspective here.
 
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Frankly, whats deemed exceptable pay, fairly or unfairly, is by the people that use the service, now good they find the service and how good value they find it. Trains are overpriced, prone to delays and very few people find the service outstanding, thats why most people think you are all overpaid. Thats the majority opinion, thats fact. Every job has its difficulties(well most), and their responsibilities, not everyone has a great union.

One doctor might only be responsible for one patient at a time, but what about a guy who screws up a new drug and causes millions of people to have problems. Just because you can see the people you move daily doesn't mean you have a inherently dangerous job that very few people can do.

Also to say few make the grade. ANY job, ANY profession, when you have more people applying than you need, will simply narrow down the field by taking the best that DOESN'T mean few make the required grade to be drivers by any means. That doesn't mean that if less were applying than needed the testing would be far less difficult and all the same people turned away before wouldn't be hired and pass all training fine.

Trains are overpriced,are prone to delay.What has that got to do with drivers? Are you suggesting the delays are the fault of the driver? They aren't.The delays are largely down to over-optimistic timetabling on a network that was built to carry half the capacity it sees today.the amount of trains on most suburban lines has increased,albeit at the cost of punctuality.But as a train driver,these aren't concerns of mine.I can't affect it or change it.Prices? Do you think the ticket prices are increased to pay my salary increase or greedy shareholders of a now private company? Look at the posted profits,then tell me drivers are to blame for ticket prices.

The amount of people I carry daily doesn't mean I should be paid more,I agree.That wasn't the purpose of my statement.A surgeon is paid more than I am,and deservedly so.Some jobs in medicine or horribly underpaid,and suffer from competition from abroad.The consequences of a small lapse in concentration for me could be catastrophic.I don't have anyone looking at what I'm doing..no-one to see mistakes before they happen and correct me.I am paid to reflect this.In addition to points I've previously made.

A drug's life from conception to general supply isn't controlled by one person so isn't a valid argument.

I happen to know for a fact that the failure rate of applicants at the apptitude test phase is over 75%..probably closer to 80% during a recruitment drive.This is a fact.Whether the amount of applicants is 10 or 1000 it is still a huge failure rate.This is after getting rid of a huge swathe at the application form stage.Having seen the quality of applicants over the years I can safely say that Southern is recruiting only the best applicants.I wasn't trying to say that standards have gone up as a result of more applicants at all.In the past a lot more would get past the application form stage and fail at the next hurdle.But then there was a national shortage of train drivers.Now the companies have made it easier to apply (no longer need to be a guard for 2 years before becoming a driver),more people have applied and the company,as a result,can choose the best apllicants.
 
The amount of people I carry daily doesn't mean I should be paid more,I agree.That wasn't the purpose of my statement.A surgeon is paid more than I am,and deservedly so.Some jobs in medicine or horribly underpaid,and suffer from competition from abroad.The consequences of a small lapse in concentration for me could be catastrophic.I don't have anyone looking at what I'm doing..no-one to see mistakes before they happen and correct me.I am paid to reflect this.In addition to points I've previously made.

So your salary is justified because you have to pay attention to what you are doing? And if there is a problem, as you said yourself, all you can do is apply the emergency brakes, as you are just a passenger?

To be honest, you aren't making the job sound demanding or hard :p
 
Also,just to clear up a point.A driver on Southern gets £34k basic incl London Weighting for a 35 hour week.With rostered overtime (13 sundays a year) this rises to just under £37k.But you don't have to do this overtime and several choose not to.This figure of £40k a year applies to some rail companies yes,but their working conditions reflect this.Longer distances driven involving overnight stays in train depots across the country for freight for e.g (although some freight drivers earn more than £40k,a lot of it will be overtime)

I am paid £37k basic as an instructor,but as I choose to work my overtime I get paid closer to £40k

SWT pay is supposed to reflect a longer working week,but the details of their conditions I don't know.
 
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So your salary is justified because you have to pay attention to what you are doing? And if there is a problem, as you said yourself, all you can do is apply the emergency brakes, as you are just a passenger?

To be honest, you aren't making the job sound demanding or hard :p

Read all of my posts then comment..or apply for the job yourself and see what the job entails :D
 
What footballers earn in a week should be their yearly salary, rest of it should be pumped back into the communitys around them.

Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing, imagine what could be done with hundreds of thousands of pounds of money each week, nice roads, cleaner areas to live. Ah if only.
 
Strange how everyone here complains about train drivers being payed too much but no-one has mentioned footballers.

But footballers generate hundreds of millions for their owners, so they are paid to reflect this.

For example if one team paid them less then they would be bought, (if they where good enough) because they would make someone money.

They are valuable commodity for their owners, it's worth paying several million for them as the extra profit you make from having a top player, compared to one who only costs 100k a year is far more than you'd save on salary.

What footballers earn in a week should be their yearly salary, rest of it should be pumped back into the communitys around them.

Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing, imagine what could be done with hundreds of thousands of pounds of money each week, nice roads, cleaner areas to live. Ah if only.

You mean like some kind of income based Tax?

They already do more for the community than you.

Have my first :rolleyes: of the year :)
 
you never see them advertised ,I wonder how you get into it ,can't do tubes as my location but we have 2 train stations 5 mins away from me !

they are advertised. Just have to look on railway sites especially ews, FGW etc.
Starting pay is around 16k. It's around an 8month course to begin with. You will then start on a small branch line for 12months or so. Then gradually work your way up to main line. It's not until you are on long distance main line that you see 40k. That's pretty much as much as you can get for passenger.

You have to pass a interview, drugs and alcohol, medical and then a coordination test. A lot of people fail the coordination test.

Oh and it's no where near push a button and go.

I was hoping someone would come in who knows his stuff, I remember the last thread ( might of been a few years now) and the story of a guy setting his career back 10 years because he went 80 feet over a point. Is that true to an extent with freight or even any trains? Has the media attention with the rail disasters brought about massive changes to the system?

That's known as a SPAD(Signal passed at danger).
You will be immediately removed from work and a drugs and alcohol test administer. There will be an investigation, all phone calls between anywork force and control are recorded. Yes drivers do actually have to talk to control and get out of there trains to do it.

If you fail drugs and alcohol you are sacked on the spot and banned from any job on the railway for 5years. That includes office staff they have the same rules as people out on track.

If you pass then it's down to why it happened.
 
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