Train prices

[Amp34]

Exactly, Virgin are actually not that bad, last time I got a free paper, pretty decent breakfast and you can actually get some work done (laptop power point at each seat). The last bit is the key bit, it's about being able to work on the move, and unfortunately very few of the opperators understand this.

First Great Western have powerpoints in standard class too (next to all seats).

I have to agree, ticket prices are extortionate compared to some other nations, although I don't think they are THAT bad when you compare it to the cost of going the same distance by car.

For example: Plymouth to the other side of London, booked in advance with a young person rail card is £51 return. Cheaper if you get two singles usually (down to around £30, I even got a first class single for around £18 once). This is an approximate 4 hour journey.

Spain, from Barcelona to somewhere in the middle of the country (I honestly don't know quite where we ended up) is around £20 for a single with no discounts, but this is around 5 hours journey, in a slightly poorer train than FGW.

Tunisia on the other hand, around £10 for First class (bearing n mind they also have a "second" and "third" class) for a 6 hour journey, again the FGW trains were sllightly better, and you do get fleeced on food (£10 ish for a roll and £2 for a small packet of crisps, wasn't my money though so meh..).

So all in all Britains rail system sn't that bad, yes it can be expensive on the day but book in advance and it isn't too bad, and you get better (long distance) carriages than most other nations.

 

[muon]

Also Germany's ICE trains are really expensive. People usually cite them as a model to follow. I think LGV in France are subsidised and the spainish inter city trains are probably as well.

 

[Liefrich]

Licenses exist for limited periods of time. The competition exists over time rather than simultaneous offerings.

London buses are one company, yet you've simultaneously argued that muliple supplies are good for consumers. Maybe in the retail market this is true but I just don't believe it can apply when you're talking about public transport.

If you have multiple operators in a small city, they will all want to operate the most profitable routes and thus ignore the others. There will be still people who wish to use buses but because they do not live on the profitable routes which have an abundance of buses they have to resort to cars.

 

[saddler]

Licenses exist for limited periods of time. The competition exists over time rather than simultaneous offerings.

So how does that explain the continous above inflation rises in the cost of tickets? Ive seen franchises come and go and every time ticket prices have only gone one way.

 

[muon]

London buses are one company, yet you've simultaneously argued that muliple supplies are good for consumers. Maybe in the retail market this is true but I just don't believe it can apply when you're talking about public transport.
If you have multiple operators in a small city, they will all want to operate the most profitable routes and thus ignore the others. There will be still people who wish to use buses but because they do not live on the profitable routes which have an abundance of buses they have to resort to cars.

I was referring to train lines and franchises. But I think it still applies to buses. As for running unprofitable lines, in London we have the GLA via Tfl which subsidising routes. Why can't local councils with local taxes do the same?

 

[muon]

So how does that explain the continous above inflation rises in the cost of tickets? Ive seen franchises come and go and every time ticket prices have only gone one way.

Subsidies for rail lines are slowly being reduced (rightly so). As a consequence if lines are to remain profitable, then the person actually deriving the utlity will have to pay up. Also it could be train operating costs are simply rising faster than inflation.

Heres an example

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/business/With-a-14-billion-payment.5274493.jp

An article from a better source

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/may/06/national-express-passenger-slump

 

[Amp34]

You should see the bus prices around here, £1 to travel less than a mile, it's cheaper to travel by concorde than it is on the buses here. Why the government doesn't stop people getting raped by the monopolies I don't know.

But the question is what is the point in charging less? Most bus services have a fe set amounts, like £1 for short journey and £2.90 for longer ones, it can be a pain for those going a short distance but those going a long way it is really cheap. For example I paid around £4 return (the standard rate for almost everywhere in the plymouth area to get to Dartmoor and back, a 40 minute journey.

Which is why I say that no money should go to EU from UK (or to any other country as aid or what not), I'd rather be out of EU than funding other countries - there are plenty of things that can be fixed here first.

Have you ever actually used the trains in Spain? Yes they are ok, but they are not that much better than those in the UK or that much cheaper, certainly not even 5x let alone 10x cheaper!

 

[rypt]

Have you ever actually used the trains in Spain? Yes they are ok, but they are not that much better than those in the UK or that much cheaper, certainly not even 5x let alone 10x cheaper!

Yes I have ...

I paid ~10 euro return for a train from Barca to Girona.
And in Belgium 6 euro return for Brussels to Waterloo
[all tickets bought on day at station]

Compare that to what FGW charge me for Oxford - London

 

[leezer3]

London is only one place in the UK, try the buses in Cardiff or Hereford - both are dire.

Well in my ideal world the system would be totally nationalised, however in the 60's trains were privatised due to heavy running costs so I doubt any government would re-nationalise. It's a tough question on how to "fix" them, for me personally the efficiency is now great, mostly on time; yet they are rather expensive.

Unfortunately in the 60's as well they also closed a lot of the lines due to increased road usage and the belief that cars/lorries would be the total future, this was in hindsight a mistake. Now we understand more the need for more fuel efficient ways of transporting people and goods, trains are better. But the infrastructure is not there nor the funding.

What?!
The railway system was nationalised in 1948 after the war, and it was only in the early 90's that privatisation started.
Your point on the line closures is also total bullcrap-
Dr. Beeching's whole aim was to bring the railways back into a degree of profitability/ self-sufficiency. While increased road usage holds some water, the driving force was to get rid of the lines that were losing money, regardless of the other factors involved.

-Leezer-

 

[Liefrich]

What?!
The railway system was nationalised in 1948 after the war, and it was only in the early 90's that privatisation started.
Your point on the line closures is also total bullcrap-
Dr. Beeching's whole aim was to bring the railways back into a degree of profitability/ self-sufficiency. While increased road usage holds some water, the driving force was to get rid of the lines that were losing money, regardless of the other factors involved.

-Leezer-

British rail went under some massive changes in the 1960's privatisation did not happen until the 1990s (I’ve corrected my point) but it still changed dramatically.

My second point however still stands, it was his short sightedness with trying to make the trains profitable which closed down lines thatwe would ultimately still use today. Ian Hislop’s program provides a good overview of the whole thing, but I'm sure you're well informed about the whole issue.

 

[Energize]

But the question is what is the point in charging less?

There isn't because they have a monopoly, hence why I said the government should step in.

 

[Glaucus]

I was referring to train lines ?

Network rail already is not for profit. Any profit has to be sunk back into the network.

 

[Vonhelmet]

I've always disliked the trains in this country, because the service you get is just not commensurate with the price you pay. Trains failing to run, or even just running sufficiently late that you miss your connections is unacceptable.

I've used Finnish trains a couple of times in the past few year and they were amazing. The intercity trains have so much room, most carriages are two storey, you can book a family compartment - and I mean a family sized compartment, not a seat in a family carriage - for a very small premium, there's children's play facilities, a proper restaurant serving cooked food... They even ran on time.

 

[[TW]Fox]

British rail went under some massive changes in the 1960's privatisation did not happen until the 1990s (I’ve corrected my point) but it still changed dramatically.

The changes in 1960's was the modernisation plan, where steam was entirely replaced, and the axing of many of the smaller lines. It was a completely unified, national entity.

Privatisation began with the Railways Act of of 1994 and the first franchises were awarded in 1996.

driving force was to get rid of the lines that were losing money, regardless of the other factors involved

Which is the problem. Low cost, frequent railway services do not make money. They require heavy subsidises. The Spanish system you guys think is some sort of a utopia does not generate profit, it is subsidised by the government. So you either have cheap trains to everywhere and the taxpayer funds it, or you don't, and the prices go up. You cannot have it both way.

Frankly rail services in many areas are a social service, the benefit to society is greater than the cost of providing the service but the revenue from the service is lower than the cost. In these cases a subsidy should be provided rather than the line simply closed. Rail travel is a very poor business model for a profit driven company. Beleiving it could work properly like this was a huge mistake.

 

[monkentage]

The franchise system is pretty idiotic; most policy in the area seems to focus on intraindustry competition completely discounting interindustry competition.

I think people seem to forget Britain's railway system was pioneered and run by the private sector. It only took a couple of decades of mismanagement by the state to become a mess and the state only got involved simply because it thought railways must survive completition from roads!

Demand for rail use is much higher than when railways started their private secor secline in the 20s so the franchise system should be abolished and it should become a free for all again.

 

[Fusion]

Dr. Beeching's whole aim was to bring the railways back into a degree of profitability/ self-sufficiency. While increased road usage holds some water, the driving force was to get rid of the lines that were losing money, regardless of the other factors involved.

The fact that Ernest Marples who was then Minister of Transport and appointed Dr. Beeching had shares in a company that was involved in Motorway construction might have slightly influenced things, too. "Ian Hislop Goes Off the Rails" mentions this, that he wasn't allowed to have these shares when operating as transport minister for obvious reasons, so he merely put them in his wife's name.

 

[Tweek_1984]

Whatever the system, the current situation is abysmal. People on the first page here are mentioning £60 as a discount? The UK is a small island. It shouldn't cost more than £20 to travel anywhere within it, single fair.

Something obviously needs to be done. I avoid rail travel as much as possible because the prices now are just ridiculous. So naturally, I jump in my car instead.

 

[Guest2]

I would like to know the fuel that trains run on and how much it costs in comparison to petrol and diesel prices for running cars. Price per mile and ticket prices would also be interesting stats.

Maybe a nice litter excel chart

 

[[TW]Fox]

Whatever the system, the current situation is abysmal. People on the first page here are mentioning £60 as a discount? The UK is a small island. It shouldn't cost more than £20 to travel anywhere within it, single fair.

Something obviously needs to be done. I avoid rail travel as much as possible because the prices now are just ridiculous. So naturally, I jump in my car instead.

What and you can get to anywhere in the UK in your car for less than 20 quid?

 

[rypt]

Mine manages Oxford Ring Road to M25 Junction on M40 and back for £15 (which is 1/4 of a tank)