Uber lose battle in Supreme Court on drivers right
- Thread starter Bald-Eagle22
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That has been ubers model from the off, ‘disrupt’ the market by running at a massive loss putting vast swathes of competitors out of business then when already In a dominant position kick out the workforce in favour of some computers and profit massively!
Will be interesting to see if uber allows third parties to buy/rent driverless cars and partner with them or whether they'll simply buy their own fleet...
Like I know that might sound silly, like "Duh dowie, obviously, they'd just buy their own fleet" but it's not like they buy the cars currently and just get the drivers to rent them from them, there is some utility in having a bunch of individuals or smaller entities manage the repairs, maintenance and take on that risk while they focus on the app/marketing.
I mean I saw an Amazon advert recently re: some business proposal they have - it isn't just individual van drivers they partner with on the logistics side but they also offer a business opportunity to people who want to invest in a small logistic company - as in you can put up the cash to get together a bunch of vans, enter into a contract with amazon and manage your own team of drivers.
I wonder if uber might, initially, to save on making a big spend, invite people to allow their self-driving car to go off and do uber pickups... I mean you might be able to put up the cash, get a car and just let it run (take on the risk of repairs etc...) or you perhaps you could just send out your car in the evenings once you're done with using it for the day etc... obvs the money you make needs to cover the additional depreciation from milage and additional services/repairs but could be a nice bit of supplementary income.
Perhaps the next thing for status hungry individuals won't be just buying the best merc/BMW they can afford on PCP but maybe buying and even better one on the basis they can supplement some of the cost by using it for uber on the side.
Once we get to the point where there are an abundance of self-driving cars available at short notice then the smart move (if not rich) will be to not even bother with a car in most cities as it would be so convenient to just order one via an app or families with two cars etc.. might just switch to one car. Certainly, streets with small family homes with small one-car driveways could do with a cull on car ownership as the residents alone seem to clog up the streets with the things let alone leaving any room for visitors or traffic on both sides.
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Is that why my shares in it are doing so well? Seems a bit speculative as I can’t see that happening for years and years.
I think we are some way off full driverless vehicles managing some bits of my commute to work
some of the wonky random roads with random layout, random hazards, random parking, totally random pedestrians, etc. in the depth of some rural parts are gonna test any computer/AI hah.Rural isn’t ubers market big cities are where the taxi bucks are!I think we are some way off full driverless vehicles managing some bits of my commute to work
There must be something going on for a company who lost one billion dollars shares to be doing so well! They have virtually completed phase one the arrival of Uber has killed local taxi companies across the globe. Phase 2 is inevitable and clearly Uber’s end game you only have to look at the money they are pouring into driverless development.
For all the talk of AI being "safer" and driver-less being "just around the corner", all we seem to have are endless trials.I think we are some way off full driverless vehicles managing some bits of my commute to work
Which is fair enough - safety is paramount - but does highlight that we're some ways away.
I would probably feel confident placing a small wager, that after full-auto services are granted permission to operate on our roads, for a fair few years afterwards we will have people regularly being seriously injured when a driver-less car fails to "understand" something happening around it.
We're already had people killed on the trials, with the semi-autonomous models.
It's going to take a heck of a lot of refinement to substitute for the general situational awareness of an experienced, fully alert and concentrating driver.
OTOH, AI may already be safer than your mother/wife/sister/daughter
/runsdriverless taxis are the future but they years away in my opinion.
Black cab drivers will fight them (probably along with any other taxi drivers) until their last breath as its another thing that threatens the market, so that will delay any rollout potentially by years and thats when the tech is ready, it isnt at this point.
Black cab drivers will fight them (probably along with any other taxi drivers) until their last breath as its another thing that threatens the market, so that will delay any rollout potentially by years and thats when the tech is ready, it isnt at this point.
For all the talk of AI being "safer" and driver-less being "just around the corner", all we seem to have are endless trials.
Which is fair enough - safety is paramount - but does highlight that we're some ways away.
I would probably feel confident placing a small wager, that after full-auto services are granted permission to operate on our roads, for a fair few years afterwards we will have people regularly being seriously injured when a driver-less car fails to "understand" something happening around it.
We're already had people killed on the trials, with the semi-autonomous models.
It's going to take a heck of a lot of refinement to substitute for the general situational awareness of an experienced, fully alert and concentrating driver.
OTOH, AI may already be safer than your mother/wife/sister/daughter
It might work where you can completely redo the road layout from scratch with a nice standardised layout, etc. but we are some way from AI being able to recognise and handle the quirks and eccentricities of UK roads which have evolved over centuries often with the reason and why for some really bat **** crazy things long lost in the depths of time.
I think we are some way off full driverless vehicles managing some bits of my commute to work
Re: self driving cars - its not necessarily too speculative - the technology is pretty much there already, it's down to governments/regulators really:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53349313
I mean cars like Teslas can pretty much drive themselves for most of a journey as it is (and have been able to for a few years now) but still need a driver there just in case, that's not going to last much longer, the tech has progressed significantly over the past few years.
Probably, it's not necessarily going to be 100% safe, I mean we already know this as there have already been accidents involving fatalities and self-driving cars (albeit vehicles the human driver was supposed to be supervising) - the thing is even then they're safer than human drivers and the tech that would be required for fully automated self-driving is going to be safer still.
Not sure if you got into an Uber recently or ever, the drivers are not usually British or British born.Great news for British workers and British businesses
I've known a couple of drivers with degrees who basically said **** it with the jobs available in eastern europe and came to the UK to work as a taxi driver because believe it or not that's better than a lot of options.
They often go back home to their family in the summer.
They often go back home to their family in the summer.
Self employed has been around for decades. Certain industries used contractors to mitigate their NI contribution and the HMRC came up with the IR35 to combat that. But the IR35 is rarely used to litigate.
however the recent change is that the onerous of determining the self-employment status now falls on the service buyer as opposed to the service provided (the contractor). So if HMRC chooses to audit a company and they found that they have been upto the tactics of using contractors but actually they are full time employees then the company will be fined and liable for back dated NI and tax along with the individual paying backdated tax. Etc etc
In the world of gig economy, for Uber drivers unless they can prove they have other revenues other than Uber, it would be difficult for them to be considered as “contractor” status. I think when Uber first started most of the drivers had at least 2 apps - Uber, Halo and they also registered with a local mini-cab office. So in those early days definitely they are all self employed drivers.
Nowadays many many drivers are solely reliant on Uber. One way for the drivers to get around this ruling and for Uber to get around it is to advise their drivers to register with their local cab office. But that’s gonna take a hit on their income.
another test for self employment is irregular working hours or no fixed working hour. That should be considered in this ruling which I can’t understand why the justices have not considered that. Uber gives the driver flexibility in choosing their hours however with their price surge, to incentivise drivers to certain area, that can be interpreted as dictating working hours. Uber needs to find a way around that then it will be very hard for the law to say drivers are employees.
however the recent change is that the onerous of determining the self-employment status now falls on the service buyer as opposed to the service provided (the contractor). So if HMRC chooses to audit a company and they found that they have been upto the tactics of using contractors but actually they are full time employees then the company will be fined and liable for back dated NI and tax along with the individual paying backdated tax. Etc etc
In the world of gig economy, for Uber drivers unless they can prove they have other revenues other than Uber, it would be difficult for them to be considered as “contractor” status. I think when Uber first started most of the drivers had at least 2 apps - Uber, Halo and they also registered with a local mini-cab office. So in those early days definitely they are all self employed drivers.
Nowadays many many drivers are solely reliant on Uber. One way for the drivers to get around this ruling and for Uber to get around it is to advise their drivers to register with their local cab office. But that’s gonna take a hit on their income.
another test for self employment is irregular working hours or no fixed working hour. That should be considered in this ruling which I can’t understand why the justices have not considered that. Uber gives the driver flexibility in choosing their hours however with their price surge, to incentivise drivers to certain area, that can be interpreted as dictating working hours. Uber needs to find a way around that then it will be very hard for the law to say drivers are employees.
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Putting that in reverse, I know two brothers from Plaistow, East London, who each bought a house in Spain in the seventies, they’d leave their wives and kids in Spain, and fly back to U.K. in late May, rent a Black Cab each, and work long days until early November, staying with family, then fly back to Spain for the winter months.
Of course, this was in the good old days, when driving a Black Cab was like having a licence to print money.
Can you imagine a self driving taxi trying to negotiate Swindon's magic roundabout
Under the new rules if caught by IR35, the wages are taxed at source either from the hiring client or the agency so the contractor would be paid post tax, therefore the contractor wont have to pay any back taxes under an investigation.
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In the US grid like cities, with wide roads etc will be relatively easy for autonomous cars.
Getting one to drive around London or some other old cities in the uk isn't going to be simple to achieve with double parked cars, single lanes of traffic for both directions etc
Getting one to drive around London or some other old cities in the uk isn't going to be simple to achieve with double parked cars, single lanes of traffic for both directions etc
i thought HMRC can back date it and go after the contractor especially if they have left. But I think you are right HMRC is shifting their focus to companies as opposed to individuals to claw back tax liabilities.
Everything I’ve seen on self driving boils down to this. Might be fine on California freeways, but throw in an English country A road or anything that isn’t very modern, and it’s going to go out the window.